Square bench dog holes - worth doing the ledge?

[Leuf]

I'm starting assembly of my workbench top. For the dog hole strip I already have 3/4"x3/4" dadoes run through at 2 degrees. I have to decide whether it's worth the effort of cutting out the ledges for storing the dogs.

The way I see it, it's a heck of a lot of work for not much pay off. For one thing, what are the odds that the next time I need it it's going to be the same hole, unless I make a dog for every hole which seems like overkill. And did I mention the whole lot of work?

And on a tangent, on the dogs I have seen the spring on the front and I have seen them on the side. I usually see them on the front with square dogs, but it would seem to make more sense to have it on the side.

-Leuf

[Upscale]

May it not be easier to use round dogs and then all you need to is to drill properly sized holes (if and when needed) after the bench is completed?

[Andy Dingley]

Oh yes !

The "ledge" isn't for storage - it's to allow the dogs to be placed and used with only half of their height protruding. Pretty much essential for planing over the top of them.

I did mine with the router and a simple sliding jig (adjustable framing square with a stop block clamped to it). Doing the ledges was only moments of extra work. If you're doing them on the tablesaw then I guess it could be more effort, but it's still worth having them.

As a general rule, it's _always_ worth doing it "right" on a workbench. You have to live with it a long time.

[Stephen M]

Andy I *have* square dogs with a ledge and I don't follow you. Could you clarify?

When I "store" a bench dog I just push it down below the surface of the table. The ledge keeps the dog from continuing through bench top if I were to give it more of a push than necessary. The mating ledge in the hole is about 1/8" lower than necessary to accomodate the inevitable dust that drops in there.

>

[j.duprie]

I've got square dogs too. I out a ledge in the top (Bad ascii art):

| | | | | | | |

side view of doghole - the ledge in the top is supposed to catch the pad that you glue to the face of the dog to prevent it from marking your stock.

Here's what I've found: all of my "nice" dogs (the ones with pads on the face) seem to wander off when I need them. The dogs I use are just strips of random stock ripped off of hunks of scrap wood (my holes area fat 3/4 x

3/4, so its easy to find stock). On the spring placement - if you make your dogs (and holes) square, and don't bother with a pad (I haven't had any problems not having one) it doesn't matter what side the spring is on - just turn it around until its the way you want it....

-JD

[Leuf]

Yes, but if I make the top of the dog 3/4" instead of having the extra bit in front then it can slide down as far as I need, there's just nothing to stop it from falling through. I presume that the spring is enough to hold it in place while working with it, but not enough to hold it while in storage and the bench is being worked on.

The only way I can think to do it with what I have is to start it with a hand saw and then chisel. How deep is the ledge supposed to be?

1/2" ?

Well it's hard to know how to build it right without having used it before. I've seen enough workbenches with stuff that was more about demonstrating the skill of the maker than doing it right that I question *everything* I see in them. I'm more on the "good, fast, cheap" side of the scale than ultimate bench with this one.

Maybe I should make a mockup dog hole in a 2x4 to play with before I go any further.

-Leuf

[alexy]

I think so. Just finished my own "intermediate" bench, which it sounds like you are doing, and have the ledges. Not pretty--I cut the dog holes with the RAS, and the extra width with a stopped cut of the RAS to remove most of the material, and a chisel to square up.

In another message, you said "I'm more on the "good, fast, cheap" side of the scale than ultimate bench with this one." Given that, consider that your ledge doesn't have to be neat, perfectly square, etc.

The relevant question is "without the ledge, what are the odds that the dog will be in any of your dog holes, versus on the floor under your bench.

I agree with you, and did them that way. With the spring on the side, you have good unimpeded mating surfaces on the front and the back, where force is applied.

[alexy]

one of the big pluses of round dogs. And there are other tradeoffs between the two shapes. I have a bench with round dog holes and just built one with square dog holes. For irregular-shaped objects, the round are easier to use. But for holding rectangular wood for planing, give me the square ones every time--can be used as a planing stop, without worrying that the wood will twist violently to one side when you hit that gnarly grain that is 1/2" to the side of perfectly in line with the direction of your stroke and the center of the round dog.

[Teamcasa]

"Andy Dingley" said

Well said Andy. I can always use round dogs in my square holes, harder the other way around!

Dave

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[Andy Dingley]

Of course it's for storage - I should have said "not just for storage".

Yes, you could do this - if you're making your own dogs. I sized my dog holes to suit the commercial square metal dogs. Then I realised just how much I'd over-paid on a pair of these dogs, so the ones I added later were home-made and wooden.

The spring should be adequate to hold them in place through all but the heaviest pounding.

I'd cut the dog holes as dados on the table saw, making up a simple MDF angled sliding carriage as a cutting jig. Then I'd do the ledges with a chisel.

Mine are 1 1/4" deep ledges, in a 4" deep apron strip. The bench top is 2" oak, ripped into narrow strips, but the apron strip is turned vertically. There's a 1/2" thick cover strip on the outside.

My only wish is that I'd put a second row of dog holes in, about 6" or

9" in from the others.

Indeed. I'd put a Klausz-style vice on the left rather than my Frid style, if I did it again.

I wouldn't bother - you really need to jig for batch production when cutting these. It would be a faff to do this for the prototype.

[AAvK]

Upscale:

That all may be, but why not put a swiveling square top piece on a square dog? That would catch any shape and hold it. Dogs come in all shapes and sizes and designs.

[Neil Harvey]

I built my own bench with square dog holes. The bench just wouldn't be as useful without the "ledges" the bench dogs rest on while under the surface and unused. I just pop them up when I need them. Without the ledges they would fall through or I'd need to find somewhere else to store them. You should definitely take the time to put the ledges in.

[AAvK]

Are your dog's springs made of wood? If so over time they'll warp_to_flatten I should think... ?

[Prometheus]

Don't over-analize it- they're just bits of scrap to hold your workpiece. I used square dog holes for my bench, and then made the "dogs" by ripping a piece of 4/4 beech to size and chopping a bunch of little square dogs out of it on the miter saw. Then I threw all of them in a cardboard box, and presto- more dogs than I will ever need. The don't have any springs on them at all, but they still work just fine. The pressure from the vise keeps everything in place no problem.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it the "correct" way, but it's certainly nothing to get too worked up over. Enjoy your new bench!

Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

[Prometheus]

Assuming you are using the standard two rows of dog holes, why not just drill a couple of holes in a piece of scrap to slide over two round dogs when planing rectangular stock? I usually do that with the square ones anyhow, and it works really well. Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

[Stephen M]

warp_to_flatten I

That has not been my experience. Mine have been in use for over 3 years and have not list their elasticity.

Even so, I can always make more.

-Steve

[AAvK]

Okay, so what wood is your springs?

[Andy Dingley]

Mine are hickory - just sawn-down hammer shafts. The dogs themselves are maple or elm

[Barry Lennox]

That's what I use as well. A length of 3 x 1 with 3 holes and a notch in it, holds anything.

I built a simple workbench from a FWW design a while back and thought long and hard about square vs round. Eventually, I drilled a few round, and since then have added about another 12 holes where, and as required. For the dogs I use short pieces of 16mm mild steel rod I recovered from the dumpster.

This has worked out very well, and I don't see the need for the added complexity of square dogs.

Barry Lennox

[AAvK]

I bought lignum vitae pen blanks myself... ebay.