Shop size advise needed

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I have a large shop and want to subdivide a section dedicated to woodworking.
The shop already has separately framed area that is 24ft. x 11ft. I have a chance to extend this 11 foot width for an additional 12 feet. Total would be 36 feet by 11 feet.
Question!!
Is 11 feet width adequate. If needed the addition could be broadened to 13 feet wide by 12 feet long. To recap, final size could be 36 feet long, with the last 12 feet of width being 13 feet wide instead of 11 feet wide.
Is the extra two feet worth it or needed? Can you do a decent layout within 11 feet?
All comments greatly appreciated. Would like to start framing within a week.
The bonus in all of this is that whatever I add on creates extra 'mezzanine' storage on top. Also a great place for the shop cat.
Ivan Vegvary
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Ivan Vegvary wrote:

W/O knowing what you do or what you have or intend to have in the shop, specifics aren't possible. I'll simply say that more room is always useful so if it's all the same essentially, I'd go for larger...
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"Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

Shop space is like clamps, you never have enough.
Ask yourself one question.
"Where do I break down a 4x8 sheet of plywood?"
It will have an impact on the 13 vs. 11 decision.
Lew
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I don't know about everyone else, but I always cut my 4x8 sheets with a skil saw outside on my patio (and then sweep the sawdust into the grass so I don't get killed by the wife...). Doing it this way, I can get sub-millimeter accuracy -- I don't think I could achieve that on a tablesaw, even if I bought one big enough to do that. My worry would be the guide would never be square enough or rigid enough to get that level of accuracy. Now, if I needed to rip a long thin piece of wood, then I use a table saw/RAS saw. And since crosscuts can be done on a miter saw or RAS saw, I would say you should worry about distance in front of or behind the table saw, but not to the side... So a long workshop might be sufficient.
(note -- my method doesn't work well on rainy days, or in the winter :-)
John
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT), the infamous John

This is the perfect time to go Festeringtool shopping, John. New saw, new straightedge, new shop vac. All it costs is a third mortgage on the house. Wifeypoo won't mind. Just Do It!
(If Toy says something interesting, someone quote him for me, please. My gmail filter is reengaged these days.)
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:19:00 -0700, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"

Except for the plywood question (moot point when it comes to shop space) I'm with Lew: Go for the extra footage when you build. Increase that to 25' if you can. <wink>
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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clamps ... Do the flat bottom clamps really make it easier to join right angle pieces? I'm thinking picture frames and storage racke, bookcases ...
I've seen Bessey clamps on Woodsmith Shop, TV show and it looks like you don't even need a square because if the bottom of the clamp is squre then the sides are also. Is that right? If so, why use anything else?
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Bigger is better. Are you going to build jewelry boxes or entertainment centers? There was a guy here some years ago working out of a 10 x 8 shed so I'm sure you can get by too.
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To paraphrase Parkinson a bit; Your tool inventory will expand to so as to use whatever space has been provided. There's no such thing as too much space.
Max
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I agree with Lew and would definitely go for the 13' width.
Any chance of adding an elevator so that mezzanine would be truly useful for heavy stuff? Art
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Repeating others:
More is better. Depends on your use.
Thatt said, I view shop layout as a series of "lanes".
Feeding a board into a table (ripping) defines a lane for infeed and outfeed from the saw. If you cross cut at a table saw you have "so much" space for a longish board to extend beyond either wing of the saw. This too defines a lane.
Lanes exist for all all machines even if the workpiece remain stationary i.e. the area left and right if a chop saw.
Each machine has a "lane" and you need to decide what is the biggest workpiece you want to accomodate. As previously alluded to, the 4x8 sheet of plywood is one of the workpieces that you may want to accomodate.
Lanes and be stacked vertically. Machines can share lanes. Lanes can be temporarily extended with an open door. Machines can be placed on mobile bases to make you lanes dynamic. Assembly counts too; you are the machine.
Storage is important, but secondary to the "lanes". Storage should be fit under/over/between the lanes.
What machines do you plan to have? What size workpieces do you wich to accomodate? That should drive your shop size and layout.
Good luck.
-Steve
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*snip*

Something to think about is whether or not the additional corners from going wider will cause problems with layout later. If you had to center the extra 2' on the existing, so it's 1' on either side, I wouldn't bother. The corners would cause you to lose almost as much space as you'd gain.
However, if you can put the 2' off to one side, then that's plenty of room for many stationary tools or a work bench.
Puckdropper
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Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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Puckdropper wrote: ...

How could he lose space by adding dimensions, wherever they were...
I agree the 2-ft offset could be handy for a SCMS station, RAS station, bench, etc., but the 1-ft corners would be great nooks for storage, etc., too...
Plus, simply having the extra width will make that portion of the shop much more open-feeling and pleasant regardless of whether it's split on both sides or all on one.
As noted I'd go for the width/space irregardless...
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It all depends on what would need to go there. If you have tool like a saw that needs a long lane, you'd have to have it a foot away from the wall to extend the lane to the narrower section.
The space wouldn't be "lost", but just difficult to use. It may not be worth the extra hassle to make things slightly bigger.
Puckdropper
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Puckdropper wrote:

Even if he doesn't put a thing additional in the space over what would be in the smaller (a highly unlikely scenario in a shop :) ) imo the extra feeling of spaciousness of a 13x instead of an 11x area will be such he'll naturally gravitate to that area of the shop and that alone would be worth the minimal amount of effort in finishing two 1-ft wall sections and two extra corners even in the (imo unlikely) event the space were split rather than contiguous.
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dpb wrote: ...

And, actually of course, it's only one _additional_ short wall section and corner...
Just my $0.02 for the OP on the size altho he seems to have disappeared... :(
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Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Lots of good advice so far..."lanes"...bigger is better"..."break down 4x8 sheet of plywood". Keep in mind that a "lane" for a table saw (and some other tools) needs to be at least 16' long. Minimum.
In a long, narrow shop such as you are talking about the natural inclination would be to string tools along both long sides. Allowing 2' for each row of machines, you would have a 7' or 9' area between hem. Plus a lot of length.
My advice is to go here... http://www.grizzly.com/workshopplanner.aspx and play around with the planner trying different shop layouts. ___________
Personally, I prefer a more square room. Mine is 24 x 20.
I have a tool "island" in the center that has table saw, router table, drum sander, joiner and saw dust collector. They are arranged in sort of a square, each perpendicular to two others, dust collector in the center.
Along one long side I have a RAS, some storage cabinets and a plywood rack. Along the other long side I have a lathe, belt+disc sander, bandsaw and drill press; all except the lathe are mounted on stands with casters so I can pull them out from the wall and avoid interference with other machines.
One short end has a floor to ceiling lumber rack close to & perpendicular to the ply rack. The other short end has a tool bench with numerous drawers for hand tools and a sink cabinet. In between that and the island are two caster mounted tables, each 36" high by 12" x 48" that I use for glueups; clamping stuff to for hand routing, sanding, etc.; they also serve to support sheet goods while I whack off pieces that are of a more manageable table saw size.
Works for me but I'd rather have 34' by 24'.
--

dadiOH
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At *least*. Note that "lanes" can overlap in a home shop. In some cases tools may also be placed in "lanes" (bench/vice under a SCMS "lane", for instance).

Cool. Didn't know about that one.

I would, too, but you take what you can get (mine will end up carving out the "attic" over the garage and laundry, about 15x30 but three sides will be knee walls. :-(
<...>
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Definately depends on what you do. If your'e like most you do a mix of residential construction and furniture size and down wood working. So a 4 x8 is something you might use as an aid to your layout. Don't forget that many construction goods come in large sizes now than 4 x8...sheet rock I've heard of 8 x 15, base board moodings..12 ft..etc.
If your happy with your current tool set, then you can use that to figure out the layout you need. If not, get one of those "How to set up your Shop" books...they have many points to consider before building your workshop(or adding to it)...things like electrical and HVAC...plus workflow considerations that some others have touched upoun already. I went from a 10 x 12 garage to a 24 x 32 steel building workshop and I wish I had more after 3 years (but of course I added a unisaw and scms too)...so think about expansion.
One of things I didn't do well is storage...you tend to accumulate a lot of jigs, parts, hardware, wood scraps, special tools, paint, finish supplies, etc Where are you going to put it all,so that you can get to it when you need it (or more importantly "might be able to use it").
Also, some make the table saw the center of the wood shop, I think a better view, is the workbench should be you center piece...you really end up spending more time around the work bench than you do the table saw (unless you use the table saw for a workbench)
Anyway...good luck and have fun...that's what its about.
Al
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