shop heat....dedux? lol

[skeezics]

built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.

12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with a 175000 btu kerosene heater and learned some lessons 1 kere stinks. but i already knew that. it was available. 2 when you borrow a heater someday ya gotta give it back. :-{ 3 at near 3 bucks a gallon it aint cheep. 4 when ya got open gable vents in the second floor its not any cheaper!!! and 5 it puts a lot of moisture in the air. rust sucks. a wood burner is out of the question. when you burn wood in a woodworking shop you can never find that special piece for the latest project cause in the race to stay warn ya burnt it! lol... gas heat is just 1 more thing to run to town for in the middle of important shop time. sooooo im looking at electric heat. i allready have it and pay a minimum each month for it so i might as well heat the world with that. the shop isnt insulated well but it does have wheatherstripping around doors and on windows. i enclosed the top of the stairs and hung a door there. so the vents are not a problem. i am looking at several units ranging in price from 300 to almost 700 bucks. the cost doesnt realy concern me but i want something that will heat it up quick and keep it above 45 degrees on cold days. the 300 dollar one says it will heat up to 500 SF i got nearly 800 SF to heat. im not lookin to make it toasty warm so this may work. here are some links to what i found so far. any suggestions? or alternatives? ?number=HER100thanks for any help.

skeez

[Edwin Pawlowski]

How much heat do you need? The best way to find out is to do hte calculations based on building construction, climate, temperature rise you must achieve. Not knowing your locations, I can't even guess what you may need.

How well did the 175,000 Btu model do? That is quite a bit as many home heaters are in the 100,000 Btu range. The ones you listed below are in the

30,000 Btu range. Based on my smaller shop with only partial insulation, that is probably not enough if you get down to single digits.

They are also listed at about 40 amps or 9,000 watts. That is 9 kWh. In my neighborhood, running one of them would cost $1.35 an hour and it would have to run most of the time to maintain temperature. You could be looking at $15 per day to operate it in very cold weather. If you ran two of them even part of the time, $20 to $25 a day is not out of the question.

Do you have the service in the shop to handle that load in addition to the tools?

[extiger]

For about one year, I'll work in my newly constructed garage. About

24x28 with 14-foot ceilings. California regs are tough, so this building is tight, thermally. I bought a 220v plug in heater to take the chill out. 1kw produces about 4000 btus. A 400 sq ft garage, if insulated, would require about 5000+ btus to heat comfortably. So you can gauge the heat demand, a house built to modern code will need about 12,000 btu's for every 800 ft/sq of living space.

I chose a portable electric heater over a pot-bellied stove, kerosone barn heater, pellet stove, or propane heater. Worried about fire, fumes, oxygen depletion, soot, ashes, and the fact that my small electric can be moved around close to me.

All bets are off on btu ratings if your attic is porous or the windows and walls aren't insulated. When my full-sized shop is built, it will be heated and air-conditioned using a Geothermal Heat Pump. With radiant piping in the floor. But that is another story.

Gary Curtis Los Angeles

[Pat Barber]

[extiger]

Great idea, Pat. 40,000 btu would make your shop toasty, and even with radiant, the drafts in the attic/ceiling area wouldn't be much of a problem. My present house (I'm moving in 6 weeks) is heated entirely with radiant.

It makes every machine in a shop warm to the touch.

Gary Curtis

[else24]

I've got the Fahrenheat version of that Dayton at the top of your list. My garashop is a little smaller than yours, about 18 x 19, but it's detached and uninsulated. I'm going to insulate it and tighten it up this winter. So far this unit has done very well here in south central Wisconsin. It can keep the inside at over 60 while it's 32 outside, which has been just fine for finishing up the latest project. I won't be leaving it on all night till I've got the insulation up, but I already know it will let me do rough work inside the shop when it's really cold outside. Then, when I've got the space down to a nice insulated 2500 cubic feet, I think it will keep everything above freezing and let me make sawdust all next winter. Barring the beginning of the next ice age, of course.

I think that unit's going to be a little small for your setup, though, especially if you're going to heat the upper storage too. If you close up the lower part and place the heater well, then it'll probably be good for down to 10 degrees F. But then, I'm not you and I don't mind experimenting with your money. :-) All I can say is I'm satisfied with this unit for my own needs.

[Brian Elfert]

I am curious where you are located and how much it cost to build your shop? I am in the planning stages of a shop to be built next spring/summer of about the same size. I would like to include attic storage if possible, but I'm not sure I want to shingle a 12/12 pitch roof.

I would insulate at the same time heat is installed. Propane is almost always cheaper than electric heat unless your electric is really, really cheap.

Your local supplier can provide you with a large above ground tank that should last a whole season. If you contact the local propane supplier and tell them you are thinking about electric over propane, often they will do things such as running the piping for free. I've heard of people sometimes getting a free propane heater.

Brian Elfert

[skeezics]

central N.C.

we dont get that cold as often as more northern states and when its in the low teens i wont be out there. lol...

i wont be heating unless i am out there. only a few hours a week mostly.i closed off the upstairs last weekend so the louvered gables are not a problem now. the shop is semi insulated. it has 1/2" foam type sheathing and then hardiplan siding. the R value isnt all that much but all in all the building is tight.

got 200 amp service so power is no problem. thanks.

skeez

>

[skeezics]

gas is out. our propane has tripled in the last 5 years. i realize it is probly better but......

skeez

[skeezics]

thanks that is what i was looking for. if that unit is ok for your shop size then i guess i should look at the next size up. was looking at one right in the middle at 24000 btu i think. i dont want to overdo it but i dont want to underdo either! lol

skeez

[skeezics]

i had it built. central N.C. didnt have the time for such a large project.

mine was 27000 without electric. i pulled the permit and did the wiring myself.

they do that here but you have to agree to so much usage to get the free stuff. on our home we have gas heat and the tank is free and so was the hookup. i nearly SMP's at the last fillup!!!!!

skeez

[else24]

In my neck of the woods, propane, natural gas, and oil are increasing so much faster than electric that electric is now competitive, especially after you figure in the cost of buying and installing a gas or oil unit. For me, a system that's as safe and odor free as the electric wouldn't break even for some years. I don't like it and it goes against everything I 'm used to, but I've run the numbers and done the forecasting, and electric keeps winning for this little bitty shop. If there was more cubic footage, it'd be different.

[Morris Dovey]

| In my neck of the woods, propane, natural gas, and oil are | increasing so much faster than electric that electric is now | competitive, especially after you figure in the cost of buying and | installing a gas or oil unit. For me, a system that's as safe and | odor free as the electric wouldn't break even for some years. I | don't like it and it goes against everything I 'm used to, but I've | run the numbers and done the forecasting, and electric keeps | winning for this little bitty shop. If there was more cubic | footage, it'd be different.

Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[else24]

I've priced it, but right now the sunshine outside my window is dull gray with white stuff going sideways. Not sure how much heat I'm gonna get outta that. :-)

[Morris Dovey]

| I've priced it, but right now the sunshine outside my window is dull | gray with white stuff going sideways. Not sure how much heat I'm | gonna get outta that. :-)

It was like that here yesterday. Still, every time the shop air passed through the collector it came out 9 degrees (F) warmer.

Typical sunny day temperature gain this time of year is 85-100F and about 20F more at mid-winter. The output is noticably better than that when the ground is snow-covered.

I like to brag that I heat my shop with a large unshielded fusion reactor. :-D

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[else24]

Ya got a point. After I've gotten this shop buttoned up, a little solar backup wouldn't be a bad idea at all. But with lots of buildings and trees around, even without leaves, I'll have to keep an eye on the shop with respect to available sunlight this winter. The backyard's nice for a lot of things, but sunlight isn't one of them. None of the walls get much sun.

[Brian Elfert]

Might work okay in Pheonix, but who needs heat in Pheonix?

Here in Minnesota, I just heard we average around six sunny days in November. A lot of our other winter months aren't much better.

My new shop will probably have natural gas heat even though equipment is somewhat expensive. I believe natural gas would have to at least double to equal electric. Electricity is likely to increase in cost as other energy sources cost more.

Brian Elfert

[Morris Dovey]

| "Morris Dovey" writes: | || Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-) | | Might work okay in Pheonix, but who needs heat in Pheonix? | | Here in Minnesota, I just heard we average around six sunny days in | November. A lot of our other winter months aren't much better. | | My new shop will probably have natural gas heat even though | equipment is somewhat expensive. I believe natural gas would have | to at least double to equal electric. Electricity is likely to | increase in cost as other energy sources cost more.

Interesting. I solar heated my shop in Minnesota for over ten years - and during the winter months had to use 2x4 scraps to hold the door open to let the heat _out_ of the shop - even when it was thirty below and blowing outside. You might find it interesting that the shop was an uninsulated 24'x32' concrete block building with an uninsulated slab floor.

Of course, that was in the southern (sunny) part of the state. ;-)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[skeezics]

thats interesting. what might a solar system cost? got some links?

skeez

[Morris Dovey]

| thats interesting. what might a solar system cost? got some links?

You gotta be kidding!

But just in case you're not:

You can build enough passive solar heating panels to heat a shop the size of a two-car garage for less than $500 in materials and a not-unreasonable amount of work. You'll need a table saw, router, some clamps, and a screwdriver.

For links try

and lurk on news:alt.solar.thermal - and if you get really stumped, try following the link below and browse for ideas.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA