Semi-OT What's Wrong Here?

[Odinn]

On 7/3/2005 5:08 PM Leon mumbled something about the following:

So, only people with physical walking problems are handicapped? Damn, you are dense.

[George]

The breathing difficulties disappear as they browse, however.

[Upscale]

That's as about a short-sighted statement I've seen in a long while. I could climb into a corvette and get out, but I'm not capable of walking 5 feet without grab bars to help me keep my balance. They're called "Arms and Hands" Leon and if you had any idea what you were talking about you'd realize that they're used for holding onto things when moving around.

You might believe your smiley tempers your statement, but it doesn't.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Leon, I hope you never have the problems some do. My wife (most days) can walk the inside of the larger stores, but she has to do it pushing a cart. The walk from a parking spot to the door is often a problem if there are no carts available or she does not have my arm to hold on to. In nice weather, I'll park at some distance so we can get the exercise, but when it is 13 degrees or 95 degrees, the placard comes out.

I know abuses occur. I know a fellow that uses his grandmother's car for Christmas shopping. I'm sure some people don't need to use those spots all the time. I'm sure some doctors are too quick to sign off. I doubt than any of us here (even if you are a doctor) can make an honest evaluation just watching a person walk to the store.

Oh, did I mention that some stores have electric scooters for the handicapped?

[Brian]

[World Traveler]

Think about the issue a little more. Suppose my mobility impaired spouse needed a plumbing repair item or I wanted her opinion on a lighting fixture or paint color. Are you suggesting HD shouldn't let her in the store?!?

Hats off to our local BORG -- Our HD has electric carts for those that need them, and at least one person on the sales staff uses a powered wheelchair. HD is very good about providing services to handicapped customers, and also very good at hiring staff with special needs as well. In fact, I think the corporation has a special program and an arrangement with Goodwill to either use or provide training and experience for persons (such as with Downs Syndrome) who might otherwise be unemployable.

Regards --

[Leon]

So do these type ailments suddenly get better once you are in the Borg and end up walking a quarter mile or more?

[Leon]

And so do I, and in no way mean any disrespect to any one with a disability.

My wife (most days) can

These are the people that I think George and I am picturing.

[Upscale]

wheelchair.

Agreed. One of the HD stores I go to has at least two wheelchairs available for those that need it and at least one person working there who uses a wheelchair. He works in the woodworking tools section. The washrooms there are wheelchair accessible too. This is Canada I'm talking about so there aren't any ADA rules in effect to guarantee this stuff, at least not yet.

Only one time did I have a disability related problem at this store. Went into the washroom to use the single accessible stall (there were 2 other regular sized ones) and there was a HD employee already in there. Knew he was an HD employee because I could see the edge of his orange HD smock hanging down from the hook. Waited and waited 20 minutes for this guy to come out. Knew he was reading he paper because I could hear him turning the pages. I eventually asked another HD employee to find a manager for me. Just as the manager came by, the HD employee came strolling out of the stall. I'd have spent the time to really give him shit, but I had other priorities to deal with. Next time, my limit is ten minutes max before I start hammering on the door to the stall. Either that or invade the stall in the women's washroom.

[Leon]

I am not trying to ruffle any fetahers here as I do indeed believe that many situations are legit. But when the guy parks in the handicap area and walks briskly into the store and or walks his empty cart to the cart parking spot after emptying it I cannot see the point of him parking in the handicap zone. I am not quite sure I could guess what the disadvantage to parking like others would place on him. Living in Houston I see this just about every time I go to the Borg.

[Upscale]

Well, I have to agree with you in one respect. There's always going to be a number of people that will take advantage of the system. I've seen some really ridiculous examples of that too.

Up here in Toronto, the disabled transit system is called Wheeltrans. I saw a rider once who just missed his Wheeltrans bus and sprinted a good

[Tim Douglass]

I've done it that way - it's part of the reason I now have bad knees. Of course I was traveling about 65 mph when I fell off.

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

[Odinn]

On 7/3/2005 9:34 PM Tim Douglass mumbled something about the following:

I destroyed on knee hyperextending it playing baseball that never healed properly, the other I busted pretty bad hitting it with a maul while splitting firewood.

[Mark & Juanita]

Just out of curiosity, have you had any significant issues with places not accomodating wheelchairs, despite not having an ADA type act? I ask because I would expect that most businesses would make reasonable accomodations just as good business. Having been involved in a construction project at one church where the number of required handicapped spaces was absurd relative to our known requirements, and now being involved in another construction project at a different congregation where, if we follow the rules for the building capacity, we will be ridiculously under our requirements for such accomodations, I have found that the "big hammer solves all problems" approach of government fiat is not always the best approach to solving problems.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Upscale]

You're going to regret asking me this because you'll get an earful. You might want to take this conversation offline.

The answer to your question is a categorical "YES". I live in Toronto, Canada's largest city. I'm willing to bet that at least 75% of restaurants and buildings in Toronto are not accessible to wheelchairs and at least 95% of them don't have wheelchair accessible washrooms. Smaller businesses do not see the value in spending the money for ramps or elevators for Toronto's disabled population. For the past twenty years or so, new office buildings are wheelchair accessible, but accessible washrooms in these buildings are few and far between. I can give specific examples of MANY >40 story office buildings in Toronto without accessible washroom access anywhere except maybe one on the first floor. What about disabled clients? They don't exist for some reason? In many cases, historical heritage has allowed government and public offices to escape the mandate that all public buildings be made accessible.

Our subway system is only 1/3 accessible with elevators after two five year plans and one ten year plan to make them all accessible. While the Toronto Transit system has been implementing low floor and accessible buses as fast as they can afford them, there's a number of areas served solely by streetcars that certainly are not accessible and no surface route buses running.

Wheeltrans, the specialized transit system for the disabled is hopelessly overbooked with wait times often approaching two hours and ride times often running in excess of three hours. Imagine going to a job everyday where you had to ride three hours to work and three hours to get home after waiting several hours for pick up in both directions? I've actually had to quit a job because the waiting and travelling time took longer than the hours I was working.

I live 100 yards from Yonge and Bloor a location many consider the centre of Toronto. I know this city. Bigger, upscale restaurants are starting to change their premises to accommodate the disabled, but the fast food restaurants are not. McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Taco Bell, ad infinitum, I have never seen one wheelchair accessible washroom in ANY of these chains. At best, they're located in a shopping mall and leave that kind of thing to the mall designers. Imagine one or two wheelchair accessible washrooms in a 100+ store shopping mall capable of handling 1,000's of people concurrently? What percentage of people are disabled? 10%-15%?

When I go to movie theatres, although most do have accessible washrooms on the premises, I often get in verbal arguments with people who use them instead of walking the extra 50' to the regular public in movie washrooms.

Need to hear more? Email me privately.

[Upscale]

A response to this. The lack of government fist has allowed many (most) businesses to dismiss the idea of spending money for disabled access. It might seem like it's good business to enable access for the disabled, but the reality of the situation is a direct contradiction to this idea.

In Ontario, one recent former premier (Mike Harris(may he rot in Hell)) enabled an ODA (Ontarians with Disabilities Act) that had absolutely no teeth when it came to mandating accessibility for the disabled. His belief was that business would do the right thing if their own accord. (What a pile of crap!) The current premier (Dalton McGuinty) is mulling over an ODA with substantially more clout, but it's an ongoing process. That's provincially. There is nothing on the horizon that I've ever heard for a National disabilities act for Canada.

[Upscale]

handicapped

I know for a fact that many churches in Toronto have made significant changes to enable access for the disabled. I consider churches to be private organizations, not part of the commercial apathy that pervades Toronto's business community when it comes to disabled access. It would make sense too. As far as I'm concerned, a church survives on the good will of it's congregation, many of them who might be disabled or elderly. Access makes sense, something completely lost on Toronto's business community.

[Charlie Self]

You lost me there. I know too many people who have COPD, bad hearts, and a couple with emphysema to think the difficulties disappear. In the case of COPD, the difficulty breathing MAY come and go, but that is not at the behest of the person suffering from the problem.

[Prometheus]

A lot of them are out of place. I've got a sister who is really and truly handicapped, so my parents have the plates on all their vehicles. She can only ride in the van, but my mother still uses the handicapped spots in her Taurus, without a handicapped person in sight just because she has the plates.

Had a few good yelling matches with her over that one, but some people just will never learn.

[Upscale]

That's different from up here in Canada. Parking permits for the disabled are assigned to the person, not the vehicle. I can use the permit when I'm travelling around as a passenger with someone who is able bodied or when I'm driving a vehicle with hand controls.