Scary -- craftsman rant

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J T wrote:

And when you pull the bit out of the drawer/case to use it next time, you wipe off any extra oil and check tightness at the same time. Works for me. :-)     mahalo,     jo4hn
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That's a fair post, Mike. Always easiest to blame something else. I mean, geez, it can't be MY fault, can it? ;-) The reason that I went off on Craftsman is that when I use a screwdriver to tighten something, I figure it ought to stay tightened for more than, oh, 20 minutes or so.
I like your idea of a lock washer. I'm going to try to find one that doesn't stand proud of the base of the pin.
Regards,
Joe

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And the most important safety rule is to wear this (tap-tap-tap) full body armor.
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"



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Wed, Jul 28, 2004, 6:49pm (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net (JoeC) says: <snip> set the "safety" starting pin in the table <snip>
OK, this is the part hat escaping me. In all my reading on router tables, I don't recall "ever" reading any mention of any "safety pin". I think my router table is sn it's 3d reincarnation now, and all I do on it it pattern rout, or whatever you wan to term it. I've been thinking about a "safety pin" since I started checking this thread, and I don't see something sticking up on top of my router table doing anything oher than hindering me. I use a template, or patter, in all this. Some pieces are about a foot wide, up to close to four foot long. Other pieces are considerably smaller. Some oare pretty much flowing lines, others are pretty complex. But, unless the piece is really small, say two inches, by two inches, I don't have problems. The small pieces, you need to be really, really careful, hold them tight, and go really slow, or the can get whipped out of your fingers. Best way is a jig to hold them - time consuming, yes, safe, yes. Even better way is don't make anything that small on the router table - which is the way I decided to go.
But, to get back to the "safety pin". OK, I get it's supposed to do something "safe", but what exactly? As I said, I don't see it doing anything but hindering me on my table, and my projects. To my mind, it'd be much safer to just take it out, and leave it out.
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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(Joe C) says:
But, to get back to the "safety pin". OK, I get it's supposed to do something "safe", but what exactly? As I said, I don't see it doing anything but hindering me on my table, and my projects. To my mind, it'd be much safer to just take it out, and leave it out.
The pin gives you a pivot point to work off of when doing freehand routing. You butt to the pin and enter the wood into the bit by pivoting it thereby eliminating kickback and wild, exciting moments.
--

-Mike-
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Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 12:32am (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com (MikeMarlow) says: The pin gives you a pivot point to work off of when doing freehand routing. You butt to the pin and enter the wood into the bit by pivoting it thereby eliminating kickback and wild, exciting moments.
"Freehand routing"? That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Tthe OP was doing template routing. So, he screwed up, by haveing the pin in, in the first place?
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:09:19 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (J T) wrote:

No, you use the pin as a starting lever to rest the template and piece against while turning the piece into the bit. The starting pin helps prevent kickback upon initial bit engagement with the wood. Another way to prevent having the pin come loose would be to use a bit of loc-tite to prevent the pin from coming loose.

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Fri, Jul 30, 2004, 10:00pm (EDT-3) snipped-for-privacy@hadenough.com (Mark&Juanita) explains: No, you use the pin as a starting lever to rest the template and piece against while turning the piece into the bit. The starting pin helps prevent kickback upon initial bit engagement with the wood. <snip>
Nice theory, I guess. About 99.909% of everything I do on my router table is template routing. I don't have a "safety pin", and have never had any kickback problem. I do usually have my work trmmed to about 1/4" or so from the template, but not always. I do take it easy, until the bit bearing is riding on the template/pattern.
I just cannot see a "safety pin" being a necessary, or even desirable, feature for a router table. Sounds more like a sales gimmick to me.
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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(Mark & Juanita) explains: No, you use the pin as a starting lever to rest the template and piece against while turning the piece into the bit. The starting pin helps prevent kickback upon initial bit engagement with the wood. <snip>
Nice theory, I guess. About 99.909% of everything I do on my router table is template routing. I don't have a "safety pin", and have never had any kickback problem. I do usually have my work trmmed to about 1/4" or so from the template, but not always. I do take it easy, until the bit bearing is riding on the template/pattern.
I just cannot see a "safety pin" being a necessary, or even desirable, feature for a router table. Sounds more like a sales gimmick to me.
I think you're missing the explanation. Go to some of the web sites and take a look at the use of the starting pin. It's no sales gimmick, but if you're only doing template routing then it would not have a purpose for you. Others of us use our routers for different types of routing and it can come in handy. It's not an absolute must, and there are other ways to get the job done quite often, but it's no sales gimmick.
--

-Mike-
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Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 8:52am (EDT+4) From: snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com (MikeMarlow) says: I think you're missing the explanation. <snip>
I already had that part figured out, however it took Charlie, and UA100, posting, to clear it up. Now I have reasonable knowledge about what the pin is, it's purpose, how it's used.
We've been talking about two different things. For one thing, I have been using "template" and "pattern" interchangeably, for what I do. Then "freehand routing" was tossed in a thread about a router table.
OK, my router lives in my router table. I have no problems with kickback. No pin needed.
I don't do any version of "freehand routing". No pin needed.
Now that it is clear, yes, a pin would indeed be a highly desirable safety feature - in certain applications. None of which I do, or even have plans, hopes, desires, of doing, in this, or any future lifetimes, that I am aware of.
If, in the unlikely event that, I develop plans, hopes, desires, of any endeavors where use of a pin would be a happy thing, I will do a short, intense, search on it's use, before initiating any project activity.
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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JT

Actually, the proper name for the pin is a "starter/starting pin". T'was originally used back in the vintage times on vintage machines (shapers) when the vintage machines were run with a free running collar (what we today with a router would call a ball-bearing bit) and no fence.
It (the pin) would allow for one to feed something like a volute into the whirring cutters (3"ish and up in diameter) without the volute coming back and whacking the operator in his nuts (1)
Many operators of the day liked it when they finished out the day without their nuts hurting/aching/not black and blue.
You on the other hand, do with your nuts what you will.
(1) In reality you would have to be quite tall for a volute to make contact with a cutter, swing around and whack you in your nuts. But, truth is stranger than fiction and I did see an old boss of mine (tallish to the point of being down right freaky) do just this. He had to go lay down afterwards.
UA100, owner and user of a starting pin on his An Ultimate Router Table and nice pinkish nuts...
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Unisaw A100 wrote:

This is more than I really wanted to know.
Glen
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Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 5:59am (EDT-1) snipped-for-privacy@wi.rr.com (UnisawA100) says: <snip> Many operators of the day liked it when they finished out the day without their nuts hurting/aching/not black and blue.
I would have thought that all of them that missed out on such an experience would have liked missing out on it. But, on the other hand, it is a strange world.
You on the other hand, do with your nuts what you will. <snip>
And, I certainly shall not advise anyone of the proceedings, but I shall endeavor to keep them unchanged in every way.
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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wrote:

And after reading this I think *I'm* going to have to go lay down for a while.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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snip, snip

snipping
I saw a guy on tv the other day--contortionist, got out of this itty bitty box that two guys carried onto the stage--do things (well, at least got himself into position--he coulda put his head into a very dark place) I thought only my dog could do ...didn't say if he was a woodworker...
And let's not even talk about freehanding things...;)
Dan
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Dan Cullimore responds:

For the full nitty gritty on contortionists, see if you can find a book called Circus, by Gary Jennings. Jennings was a helluva writer, and problems contortionists have and give are a part of this novel.
Charlie Self "Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get the blame." Laurence J. Peter
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(Mike Marlow) says: The pin gives you a pivot point to work off of when doing freehand routing. You butt to the pin and enter the wood into the bit by pivoting it thereby eliminating kickback and wild, exciting moments.
"Freehand routing"? That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Not at all. It's typically done with a bit that has a bearing on it and you're just guiding the stock without the use of a fence or a miter. Not at all dangerous if you follow the rules.
Tthe OP was doing template routing. So, he screwed up, by haveing the pin in, in the first place?
I didn't realize he was doing template routing - my bad. I would not think you'd need a pin for that, but I don't do template routing so what would I know?
--

-Mike-
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Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 8:49am (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com (MikeMarlow) says: Not at all. It's typically done with a bit that has a bearing on it and you're just guiding the stock without the use of a fence or a miter. Not at all dangerous if you follow the rules.
Now you're starting to confuse me. To me, "freehand routing" would mean, no template, or pattern. So, what use would the bearing be? Or, is your definition of "freehand routing" somethng else?
I didn't realize he was doing template routing - my bad. I would not think you'd need a pin for that, but I don't do template routing so what would I know?
As far as I'm concered, having a pin would be a safety hazard.
JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat. - Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE http://www.banjer.com/midi/jerridge.mid
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JOAT responds:

I htink it's more encompassing than you express. Freehand routing is done with bearings that have bits, and with bearings without bits, but patterns are almost always used...I'd hate to rout someone a sign and not know what word went where as I went along. Much sign routing is done freehand. You do have to keep a good grip on the router, but unless you've got a real mismatch between bit, router power and operator, it's not bad.
Charlie Self "Did you know that the White House drug test is multiple choice?" Rush Limbaugh
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with
word
have to

between
I may have created confusion by my use of the word "freehand". I was referring to no pattern, since JT was clearing stating that he does all of his routing with patterns. I am not however, referring to routing signs and the like - I'm talking about routing an edge treatment with a router and a router table without the use of the fence. Typically this would be done with irregular shaped items. Think of a kidney shaped hunk of wood that you want to route an edge treatment on. Ideal example of using the pin to pivot the work piece against to gain proper harmony between the spinning bit and the raw wood.
--

-Mike-
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