safety question - many short cut-offs using a stop

[igor]

I have many hundreds and hundreds of 1" cut-offs to make from 48" lengths of 1x2 stock. After thoughts about ganging the cuts, as I've done these over the past months I have found it is not too bad to cut them one 48" strip at a time with an Incra 1000 miter gauge on my TS -- like the guy slicing meat at the deli counter. .

Anyway, numbers are going up for how many I have to do and I am again thinking about some gang set-up. Also, I think I could get smoother cuts

- I think the stock is not staying solidly against the miter gauge in relation to the blade as I make the cross-cut.

My safety concern is about the cut-offs getting jammed against the stop that is 1" away from the far side of the blade.

At present, doing 1 strip at a time, no problem: I slide the stock to the stop which is attached to the opposite miter slot and then use the miter gauge to push the stock through the blade. The stop stays where it is so the cut-off is free as it is sliced off.

I could build a sled so I could gang cut maybe 7 strips at a time. But, I think that the sled could only ride in one slot since it would seem safer to have the stop for the multiple strips stay in front of/before the blade as the strips get pushed into the blade -- so they do not get jammed and start flying. IOW, push all of the strips up to the stop and the strips are no longer in contact with the stop as the cut-offs are made. So, I could not use a sled that slids in both miter slots. I am wondering if using only one miter slot will be stable enough for 4' stock/

I thought of using my RAS. It's easier to pull/push the blade on its carriage hundreds of times than it is to push a 4' long sled with stock on it back and forth But here I am also concerned about the cut-offs getting jammed against the stop. I would have a long-projecting stop from the fence that would stop all of the strips for 1" cut-offs. If I have 12 strips -- so 12" total from the fence of my 10" RAS -- as the blade is cutting the strips farthest from the fence, and as the blade is returned back after cutting, I am concerned that the cut-offs will jam between the blade and the stop and become airborne.

Any thoughts on this? Are the safety concerns real? Any clever jig ideas? TIA. -- Igor

PS: If any of this is not clear, I can post some pictures at binaries.

[bridger]

how about a stream of air blowing the pieces off of the end of the saw as they part off?

[Ray Aldridge]

I'm no expert, so take this into consideration. It's my opinion that small cutoffs behave differently on a sled than on a miter gauge, because the workpiece is carried on the sled's surface instead of being pushed along the table's surface. When I make multiple cuts against a stop, I clamp the stop to the fence, so the cutoff is still against the stop when the cut is made. I've never seen any bad thing happen as a result.

[Robert Bonomi]

Yeah, the safety concerns are _valid_.

Settle for doing 3 or 4 at a time, instead of 7.

position 'em so the 2" dimension is vertical.

use basically your existing setup.

but add a quick-release clamp to anchor the whole mess to the miter gauge.

the process then becomes: 1) slide the 'group' of boards against the stop 2) clamp to miter gauge. 3) pass across the blade, and return 4) release clamp [repeat until boards are used up, then get new boards.]

[Edwin Pawlowski]

One thing to be concerned about is making it too easy. I don' t know the best way to do it, but I do know you should avoid any method that can get repetative where you can miss and cut yourself instead of the wood. Don't get into a situation where you are pushing the material into the saw with your left hand and bringing down the bladw with your right. Too easy to cut too short and take off a finger. .

A thought on the RAS. Can you make a special table for it? If the stop was at the top of the stock and the table allowed the parts to drop off the end or into a hole they would clear as soon as the blade passed. Given enough time and money the solution is there.

[Leuf]

Dumb question, but is your stock really 4' or are you cutting 8 footers in half to make them manageable at the start? If so you can always cut in thirds instead, or just cut your 4 footers in half if need be. The tradeoff in "waste" may be worth it. I say "waste" because it's not necessarily waste, it's just at the point where it's too short to cut anymore off it safely. You can always stop cutting sooner when you have a length left that you can use somewhere else.

I thought of this just now and may not have thought it all the way through, but how bout this. Have your sled only come up to the blade. Make a dedicated zero clearance insert for this. On the opposite side of the blade as the sled glue an angled piece of wood to the insert, with the angle sloping down away from the blade. For 3/8ths or so next to the blade it can be flat and of the same height as the base of the sled, ease the front edge so it doesn't catch the stock. Up until the cut is complete it supports the piece being cut off. Once the cut is complete since less than half of it is being supported it falls and slides away from the blade, and it cannot get sucked back towards it. I'm thinking of a 3/4" base for the sled, which normally would be overkill but gives more height for the angled piece to do its job.

-Leuf

[J. Clarke]

igor wrote:

If you have a radial arm saw that is the tool to use for just about any kind of cross-cut. The likelihood of the cutoffs getting jammed between the blade and the stop is small--they'd have to move after cutting and something would have to fall between the end and the stop to keep the piece from moving back and even if they do then they get thrown away from you so there's no real safety issue unless someone is standing behind the saw in the line of fire. Do, however, tune the saw before you do this--if the blade is skewed then the teeth at the back are going to engage the stock and lift it. I once had mine throw the entire fence across the shop (yes, I did do something stupid)--the only damage was to the fence and I never had the feel of a "close call". If you want to be double safe you could make a clamping arrangement with a handle that you hold down to hold the cutoffs in place--hinge a piece of stock to the top of the fence with a floating shoe to bear on the workpiece and maybe a little foam on the shoe to account for slight irregularities in thickness would be one way to do it, then move the stock, pull down the handle, and while holding it down move the blade--that will also keep both your hands out of harm's way. Someone suggested a jig that drops the cutoffs--this also wouldn't be difficult to do--just use an auxiliary table and let the ends drop off the edge. You might be able to arrange a dust collection port underneath the aux table with a piece of screening and use the dust collector to keep the slot clear so you could do repeated cuts without having to stop every time to remove the pieces.

Simplest thing to do with the RAS is try the cut with some scrap--at worse you'll have some scraps of scrap bouncing off the back wall, but in my experience, such as it is, you won't have a problem as long as the saw is tuned right.

[Dave W]

Leuf, Yours is an excellent idea!

[George]

Key is don't touch the cutoff until the saw's retracted. I keep warning the kids who crosscut rough lumber to only press down into the table, not forward into the fence when cutting rough. Lots of blade binding as the geometry changes.

[Frank Ketchum]

You can clamp a piece of wood to your fence and use it for a stop. Basically it is held back from the start of the blade so that you slide the stock up until it touches the stop and then push the miter guage forward. When you push it through the blade, there will be extra room between the offcut and the fence to prevent binding and kickback. Since you have to do a ton of them, cut a long tapered piece of wood (maybe 18" long and 2" wide tapering down to zero) and clamp it to the table on the waste side of the blade. Clamp it so that after a piece is cut off, the next piece coming through pushes the cut piece onto the taper and the taper pushes the piece away from the blade. You will form a small train of offcuts each pushing the next off the back of the saw. When done, sweep them up.

Frank

[J T]

Sat, Oct 9, 2004, 2:53am (EDT+4) [e-mail] (Edwin=A0Pawlowski) says: but I do know you should avoid any method that can get repetative where you can miss and cut yourself instead of the wood. Don't get into a situation where you are pushing the material into the saw with your left hand and bringing down the bladw with your right.

Heh heh. Got it covered.

OK, about my favorite woodworking magazine - Popular Mechanics - has an article in the March 1995 issue, Power Miter Saw, by Rosario Capotosto. For making a power compound miter saw, using a 8 1/4" circular saw for power. Says it will make a cut of 1 1/2" X 6 1/8" at

90 degrees

I won't need the compound feature, so that'll make it al lot easier for me. I haven't done this yet, but am working out details, as I think I'll be needing to make a lot of cuts of 1/2" X 8" material. So, I'm thinking a 10" saw should work. Some of the waste cuts would wind up being small, around 1/2" X 3", or even less.

Anyway, I'm figuring on a moveable stop, then just to the right of the blade, a ramp, leading straight down in front. I'd slide the piece until it hits the stop, cut it off, and the cut piece slides down the ramp, and into a box, neatly out of the way, then slide the wood for the next cut. Important part - I'll be putting some kind of barrier on the left, so even if my hand slips right, it's not going to get into contact with the whirly part. I've got something similar on my saw sled, I'd basically have to lay my hand flat, and slide my fingers under the barrier, before they'd come into contact with the blade.

Like I said, right now this is still in the planning stages. For one thing, I'd have to buy a larger circular saw. Another, I'm still not decided that I won't just go with a new saw sled - certainly a much cheaper option.

The miter saw in the article is pretty nifty. An advantage is, you can take your saw off, and use it as intended, save buying an expensive mitre saw. And, of course, if you only need it for 90 degree cuts, you could leave out the compound features, and it'd be a lot faster, and easier to make.

I did a fairly short google, and didn't run across plans for it on the web. That's not to say it's not out there somewhere.

Popular Mechanics is one of my favorite woodworking magazines. They've been publishing woodworking plans for something over 100 years. =

Hmm, just hit me. Wonder if Pop Mech would sell reprints of the article, or, even better, put the article on the web, if someone asked them nicely? I'm betting they's at least sell reprints.

I've been going thru all my old magazines, picking out the ones I want to save, and going to get rid of the rest - which will be most of them. Car magazines, woodworking, boating, etc. Ran across this article a couple of weeks ago, didn't even recall seeing it before, but recall the cover page.

JOAT I smile because I know my God loves me. You on the other hand, he doesn't much like.

[igor]

Very good point. Is this called psychodynamics? Well, there is some word for it. I've not been in the military, but whenever I see a TV show or movie where the sergeant says "right face" and one guy turns left, I say to myself, "There but for ..." When I set up jigs, especially since the blade guard has to be removed oftentimes, I try to create them so that the blade is otherwise covered - of hard to get to, directly. When it is a ripping jig, I also use a whole gang of Board Buddies so that, among other things, there is pressure of the stock against the fence no matter how I use the push stick to push the stock through at the end.

I had thought about that kind of setup and it is interesting to see that you did too. Here is my concern: If I do a cut-off and there is no stop block, the off-cut would tend to fall away from the blade -- "Timber". Even if the stop for this jig hits the stock only at the very top, the off-cut cannot fall away -- it either falls towards the blade of straight down. Obviously, straight down is the hope. One thought would be to alter this design and put a cross-piece on top of the stock - i.e., the cross piece and the stop form an L. That way at least there is a guard. I even have some plexiglass that might work.

I 'spose so. "My double latte, please. And don't forget the biscotti." Thanks.>

[igor]

Good points. I have to install the Sears retro kit (which I have), so tune-up is mandatory anyway.

Wow!

Definitely, there will be some auto-clearance means. Right now, doing single cut-offs on the TS, I have a sharp triangle attached to the table and just up to the blade so that each piece gets pushed along and away from the blade (before the center of the blade is reached) by the next one and eventually off the back of the table into a box. I picked that idea up from someone here, earlier.

Thanks to you and the others here for the suggestions and, as always, safety tips. I'll post pics when I get a working version built. -- Igor

[mark]

Lots of good suggestions. I have a question - why do you need all these little blocks?

[igor]

Agreed.

One of the things I find interesting and friendly about this NG is that the question you ask is regularly so inviting when someone posts a question here and yet most often no one asks. It's as if the unstated reaction is, "Well, don't know why a guy needs to know what blade to use to cut through a leg bone, but I'll give my advice anyway." (Actually, THAT might get a few questions, first.) I am NOT criticizing your question. Not at all. And, often the answer can lead to a complete rethink and a better suggestion. No, just a thought about the NG. Anyway, it is for prototyping and testing a small product design. So, I am not at liberty, blah, blah, blah. But, as I posted somewhere in this thread, I'll post pictures when I build the whatever-it-is solution. -- Igor

[Mark Jerde]

I know this is an old thread but I missed it when it was new. For the possible benefit of future googlers...

Somewhere on the www or in a library book I saw an interesting solution. The guy mounted his chop saw on an angle. The cut pieces slid off into a box. The stop was a screw or a bolt, which also provided sawdust relief. IIRC there was a guard to keep his hand away from the chop saw blade during the marathon cutting sessions.

-- Mark

[Dave Balderstone]

I *think* that was discussed here about a year ago, if memory serves.