Re: safety help please -- short cut-offs

[Ramsey]

When you want to make a series of short cut-offs of maybe 1x4s on your TS,

>do you remove each cutoff as made, worrying about the first piece being >bumped back into the blade when making cut #2? > >I need to make a number of 1.5" cutoffs from 24" long approx 2x2 stock. >I've posted about this before in a slightly different context, but that >entailed much higher numbers. > >What I want to do is clamp to the table a right-triangular piece of wood >very close to the blade, with the leading angle/point a bit forward of the >center of the blade, to act as a diverter. So, when I am pushing through >cut #2 it pushes back cutoff #1 which is diverted away from the blade along >the hypotenuse of the clamped piece of wood. > >Is this safe? Is it necessary? It seems sensible to me, but I used to >think that the fence was used for this kind of operation -- the wrongness >of which I fortunately learned by listening, not at the TS. So, when it >comes to shop safety, I am not yet trusting my obvious meter. -- Igor >

[Mike in Mystic]

Hi Igor,

I recently made a few projects which required a lot (approx. 200) short cut-offs similar to what you're describing. IIRC, they were about 1.25" long, from approx. 1" wide and 1/4" thick stock.

Obviously, starting and stopping the saw and waiting for the blade to stop would make this procedure take forever. I used my Osborne EB-3 miter guage and a cut-off fence on the table saw. After each cut, I used the eraser of a pencil to move the cut-off out of the way. This was suggested in the plan I was using and it worked extremely well. It allows you to stand to the side of the blade, in case you accidently push the cut-off into the blade, and it keeps your hand a good distance from the blade as you move the cut-off. Give it a try, I was a little uneasy the first time or two, but it is very safe and easy. I think of the ~200 times I did this, I might have pushed a piece into the blade only one or two times total.

Mike

[Steve Kreitler]

I do small cutoff's all the time, and never have a problem (of course, I use a zero-clearance insert *and* an anti-kickback blade- I'm a belt and suspenders type of guy). The cutoffs just line up neatly until I either push them one by one off the back of the saw or sweep them aside (using a piece of scrap, not my fingers). Shouldn't be a problem. Heck, piece's that small probably woudn't hurt you even if they got tossed at you. I got whacked in the chest once after dropping a cabinet door on my moving tablesaw blade- that hurt some, but didn't even leave a bruise :)

Steve

[Silvan]

Dunno, but it sounds like an interesting idea. I face the same problem frequently, and I *have* had the small piece vibrate into the blade and go KAWAAAAANG.....THOCK!!! The stuff is too narrow to make it to the splitter. (That's why I NEVER stand in front of the blade!!) It's a real problem because even if I turn off the saw between cuts, the cutoff can do the wrong thing while the blade is spinning down.

As I see it, the problem with your diverter idea is in making sure *it* doesn't get loose. You'd want to clamp it very, very securely, but it sounds like it might actually work.

Don't know if it's safe or not. I'm not one of the experts you're asking for ideas. However, I might try it, and if I do, I'll let you know how it worked out.

[Leon]

Providing your saw runs reasonably smooth and the cut off pieces don't dance around you should be able to let them just line up and fall off the back of the saw. I would highly suggest that you use a zero clearance insert. Be sure that there will be no obstruction that would prevent the pieces from freely moving. Take care that the pieces to not get jammed in the empty miter slot.

[Paul]

I had the same problem ripping 3/16" wide strips off of a 10" long section of 1"x4". (Making a bathroom vent cover) The strips of course fell down beside the blade about 1/2 the time to be chewed up by the blade. I was thinking a tighter fitting insert would fix this. Is it best to make one, and if so what is the best way to do so? I have ordered up an insert for my dado blade, but saw no inserts that were tighter to the blade (Delta 36-600)

Cheers,

Paul

[Brett A. Thomas]

Yeah, the first time I ever used a tablesaw was my new tablesaw. Needless to say I only had what I read in books. While I learn a lot from books, there tends to be a big difference between intellectually understanding "kickback is bad" and understanding at a gut level that kickback is BAD, when you've never really even seen kickback.

Even so, I'd read a lot about the importance of pushsticks. I was ripping a small-width piece and using an 18" miter-saw scrap in my right hand as a push stick. I had comitted to myself that I'd always use the tablesaw guard, somehow having missed that using the guard when ripping thin stock can actually be _more_ dangerous.

As I tried to push the wood through between the guard and fence, the

18" stick I was using connected solidly with the blade. The blade pulled the stick out of my hand - it felt as though someone had ripped it from my grasp - and fired it straight at my chest.

Did I mention that, since it was a miter saw scrip it had a 45 degree cut on the side facing towards me? :) Ooof! To my surprise, however, as with Steve above, I didn't even have a bruise.

Scared the daylights out of me, though, and I definitely think a lot before I turn on the tablesaw, now.

-BAT

[Brett A. Thomas]

By the way, in the opening sequence of "Wood Works" you can see a montage that includes a snippet of a small cutoff being made using a long sacraficial fence on a miter guage like this. Marks also in that shot uses a pencil eraser to move the cutoff to the side.

-BAT

[McQualude]

Igor spaketh...

Well Igor, for what it's worth, I'm a careful person and as long as the triangle piece is securely fastened (I'd use mounting tape) I wouldn't have a problem with it myself.

[Andy Dingley]

I use a crosscut sled. Takes you an afternoon to make one, max.

It gives me a zero-clearance slot, somewhere to mount a length guide, and a clamping fence for the stock. Best of all, for these repeated operations, it gives me a moving table that carries the stock. When I slide it back, the blade retracts entirely into the far-side blade cover and it's safe for me to clear the offcuts by hand.

[clutch]

[snippage]

On a unifence which I have no clue if you have one, you can slide it (fence) back far enough so that the rear of fence is even with where the wood would be as it is severed. Basically, your fence would only extend 2 inches or so past leading edge of blade.

I hope made that understandable.

WEs

[Bob Bowles]

[Norman D. Crow]

You should be able to buy these at most ww'ing stores(Woodcraft, Woodworkers Warehouse, etc.) or order them from most catalogs. Blank insert you install, then raise running blade through it to make the zero clearance insert. Nahmie

[Igor]

I had to read this a few times to try to picture it (slow today), but I think this sounds very interesting and simple. If I understand you, when the cutoff piece is cut free it sort of pivots on the vertical edge of jig board, away from the blade. What I also like about your idea is that by having something pushing the cutoff piece I think it is less likely to be left with a little nib at the corner --that small piece that is left if the cutoff separates right before the saw blade actually cuts it away.

Well, thanks to everyone for all the replies. I think I will try my triangle idea. Unless it is a matter of some group sense of humor ("Don't tell him he is about to light is tie on that candle."), it seems that my idea might work and won't kill me. I plan to attach the triangle to the saw using the right miter t-slot and two screws, which should hold securely. And, I think I'll try Franks' idea of having a board pushing the stock on both sides of the blade. I'll report back.

After reading all the replies, one idea -- if I had an extra zero-clearance plate to play with -- would be to actually attach the triangle/wedge to the plate before bringing up the blade and the wedge would also be zero clearance. For adjustability, the wedge could be slid forward and backwards depending on the depth (front to back) of the stock being cut. I have some UMHW scraps lying around for the wedge. I'll put that on the to-try list. -- Igor

[Abe Litman]

[Jim K]

What I do (until I get a zero clearance insert) is to take some masking tape and put down over the hole right next to the blade. It's not a permanent fix, but it works to keep small pieces from falling down next to the blade.

And before some idiot brings it up, yes - stop the blade before putting the tape down.

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:40:33 GMT, "Paul" wrote: snipped...

[Chris Merrill]

I made mine - it was easy. Cut a scrap of 1/2" MDF (or whatever you prefer) to rough size. Use double-stick tape to attach it to your existing insert. Use a bearing-guided straight bit in your router to trim it to the exact shape/size. Then put a nail in the backside to match the corresponding part on your insert. A few small screws in the side and one in the front (counter-sunk, with the head level with the edge) will allow you to adjust the fit precisely. Mine fit far better than the original. I sealed them and waxed the tops, as well. I recommend making a bunch.

Once they are fitted, I used a couple of spare speaker magnets to hold it down while slowly raising the blade through the insert. I've also used my fence on one side to hold the insert down (very carefully positioned, of course).

Good luck!

[Chris Merrill]

How 'bout making a special-purpose insert and gluing the diverter to the insert? That should be pretty secure.

I think I'll make one of these, it could be very useful!

[gandalf]

------------ I have to ask this (something of a newbie to WWing but not problem solving) Is the table saw the right tool for this task?

Safety seems to be something of an issue with this problem and many have offered advice as to how to minimise risk, your own idea may well do that, but does it remove risk to the point of being reasonable.

As I see it you want to make multiple identical small off-cuts for some or other purpose. How many you don't say but I suspect enough to warrant some effort in how to approach the job. Maybe hundreds per run?

I don't want to lay myself open to abuse here as I freely admit an unfamiliarity with many workshop tools but I do read much that is discussed about the dangers they can pose, especially when used for the wrong task. So therefore I would suggest that a suitable jig (I have one in mind) and a circular saw would be both safer and quicker.

I would also be concerned about the length of stock used. At 24" it will pretty soon end up where the cut is either plain dangerous or impossible. Do you end join this stock into longer lengths or discard it when you feel your fingers have more value than the wood?

[Silvan]

I want to replace my TS, but I just don't have the money for some time to come. I've gotten the bug again, and really want to make some stuff now that my shed is 100% shop and has real power.

However, my TS is my Achilles heel. It just doesn't cut worth a damn. While I've never had the pleasure of using anything better, I'm sure it can't be a simple matter of bad technique.

So I'll describe some symptoms, and see if I can get some direction as to what the most likely problems are, and how I might wrestle some incremental improvement out of this thing until I can afford to throw it in the trash.

It's a complete POS Skil tablesaw. Direct drive. You know, the cheapass one that doesn't have a crank wheel for angle adjustment. I _have_ checked that it's perpendicular to the table on both sides of the blade, and I can see no gaps. Getting it there was a delicate matter, and I hope never to change its angle again.

For starters, I know the table is warped. I've managed to level it some, but it's obviously still not right. I'm sure that doesn't help matters a bit. The adjustment I just mentioned for example... It might not _really_ be perpendicular because of what I have to measure against, but since both sides came out with no gaps against the good square, I think it's OK. The warpage is from front to back more than side to side.

I made a cheap sort of fake crosscut sled today by taking a table-sized width of really straight birch plywood, attaching one side to my miter gauge, and the other side to a poplar outrigger anchored to ride in the other slot.

When I ran it through with the blade fully extended, the kerf came out looking like this:

@@ @@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@@ @@@@ @@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@

I could feel it cutting again on the far side of the centerline of the blade. I guess that means the blade is not parallel to the miter slot, though it _seems_ to be so.

Playing with height, higher means more irregularity, and it's definitely much worse in the last third of the height range.

I don't have a dial indicator. I've tried measuring the distance from blade to slot with a ruler graduated in 32nds, and I don't see any difference. However, I can't think of any other reason for this. Up to the center, the kerf is pretty much straight, but once I go past that point, it digs in again, and I get what looks like a second, overlapping, angled kerf.

When ripping, if I stop feeding and hold a piece in place against the fence, it gets gouged badly enough that it takes a lot of belt sanding to remove the marks.

Wobble? Could both effects be due to wobble? Anything I can do to remedy that?

The gouging isn't happening regularly enough for it to be a tooth out of whack, I don't think. I don't see any reason to think it's the blade, though it _is_ the factory original combination blade that came on the thing. I know practically nothing about saw blades, but the Complete Guide to Sharpening or whatever it's called shows a picture of a "good" carbide blade and a "bad" carbide blade. This looks like the "good" one, with expansion slots and securely-attached teeth. I'm sure it ain't a Freud, but my gut is that I have worse problems than the blade.

I've checked that when I lock the rip fence down, it stays parallel to a miter slot, and to the edge of the table, and to a square. However, when I push work through, it has a strong tendency to pull away from the fence as I get into the cut. Everything I rip on this, no matter how many hold-downs and featherboards and whatnot I use, comes out crooked.

I won't even get into the impossible miters and other problems. If I could get it to actually rip a board straight and crosscut a board at 90 degrees, I could make some stuff.

As it is, the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to consider that maybe I should just throw it away anyway, and do without a TS until I can afford a new one. I might have better luck with clamps, straight edges and my circular saw. Though in spite of the number of times we tell people to make do with such stuff, the fact it that it's rather tricky to keep a straight edge clamped straight, and to make sure not to let the saw deviate from the edge, and to set the edge exactly far enough away from the cut line to make sure the kerf is in just the right spot. It's a pain in the ass. I'd rather get the TS working better. (Or maybe I should just buy stock in the widths I need and go back to my trusty miter box and backsaw...)

Bad as it is, it's OK for knocking stuff together that doesn't really need to be perfect. My trebuchet, for example. Even though the compound angle thingies on the sides show some light in spots, it's taken a hell of a lot of whacking and hasn't fallen down. I've built lots of birdhouses and such like with the thing, but I'd like to do something more interesting and play with some joinery.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Basically I'm asking if anyone is of the opinion that I can make this thing less useless.