question on Wooden Hand Planes and construction


I am in process making my second wood plane (Rock Maple body, Goncalo Alves Sole, Hock Irons.). It's a great way to get a quality hand plane that means a little more to you as you use it knowing that it's your own creation. I've read David Finck's book "Making & Mastering Wood Planes" that has a great deal of Krenov influence. They discuss one manner of making the cross pin. Having worked with my first and experienced some frustrations of getting the wedge and cross pin to sit as tight as I'd like, I was wondering if there are other means of making the cross pin? By using the tenon style cross pin with a flat side for the wedge to sit against, you have to have the two match PREFECTLY. My question is... has anyone ever used " or 5/16" brass rod, cut to length between the cheeks for the wedge to work off of? Would the brass and Rock Maple have enough friction between the two to create enough tension to hold the irons? By Using brass rod, your only machining one surface that must be perfectly flat. You would not want to glue the rod into the cheeks for expansion purposes, etc but it just seems to be a good way of creating a solid surface to use the wedge against. Just looking for a different way to skin a cat.
Thanks,
Steve
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

I believe that's exactly how David Marks did his: <
http://djmarks.com/photo.asp?image=/photos/woodworks/606_handplane1.jpg
--
Joe Wells


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wrote:

Joe, I appreciate that ... makes me feel better that my thinking wasn't way out there! ....
Thanks,
Steve
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:14:52 -0500, Steve wrote:

My planes so far haven't used pins; I've been cutting out the mortises. That said, I've been thinking about a pin-style. Wouldn't brass be too soft? I've had brass rod bend when I used it in a cam clamp. Even mild steel would be stiffer. (True, brass would be prettier.)
The Krenov style plane plans I've seen have the triangular cross piece mounted loosely. Sure, you have to make the face perfectly flat, but it's supposed to pivot on its round tenons to fit the wedge.
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"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad scientist com
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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:42:12 -0600, Australopithecus scobis

My first plane used the triangular cross pin mounted using a tenon in each cheek. It looks nice, but getting full pressure across the pin and wede can be a more of a trial and error deal when making the wedge. You can see where the pressure comes from when making the wedge. I still have trouble with the irons wanting to move (very small amount, only noticable when planing for some time) and feel that there might be a better way around this.
As far as the brass bending. I'm thinking 5/16" solid brass between the cheeks (2" span) ... it'll take quite a load to bend.
Thanks for the response.
Steve
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I've made a couple of Krenov style wooden hand planes with brass rods and they work great. It's a lot easier than making a wooden cross-pin that is straight and square. They also take up less space. One thing I've found that helps is to file a flat face along the length of the rod about 1/8 of an inch or so wide (you probably need a 5/16 or 3/8 rod to do this). This prevents the curve of the rod from digging into the wedge -- which can make the wedge a bit unstable at times since its constantly being dented out of flat. A flat surface against the wedge works better.
And brass is plenty stong across such a short span.
Robert
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4ax.com:

I used a walnut dowel for my first one. That's the process that was shown in one of the FWW articles written by one of the instructors at College of the Redwoods, which is where Finck took some training.
It's lasted a year or so now, working just fine. That's not the plane I tend to reach for first, but it works fairly well.
I'm glad I built it, but it hasn't replaced the metal planes in my arsenal. And it didn't save me money by any realistic evaluation. There's no way I could make a noticeably better wooden handplane than that which Steve Knight sells, at a very reasonable price.
Patriarch, who's almost 50% done with the hand tool cabinet, loosely modeled on charlie b's version...
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what angle did you make the wedge at? 10 degrees seems to work really well.
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Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:39:01 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:

Is it easier to cut angles expressed as ratios, rather than degrees? One can set a bevel gauge to, say, 1:12, with dividers and straightedge. Using numbers on a protractor introduces uncertainty. For a one-off, who cares; I'm just curious about what works for folks who have made more planes than I have.
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Steve wrote:

to making a plane. Making the plane is fairly easy but that tenoned cross pin is unnecessarily difficult. We just use a 1/2" dowel for our plane kits. Works just fine and I haven't seen any deformation of the wedge from it. And since it's wood glued into wood, there is less weakening of the side than there is with the pivoting pin. The hard part is finding accurate 1/2" dowels -- the ones at the hardware store are always undersized. (We get them from Woodcraft.)
--
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS www.hocktools.com
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very true but I just thought of a easy way to do it. cut a triangle just large enough to drill through with a hole the size of your dowel. now you have a pivot point that will work well and change with the wedge. I did this on my infills and it works well. plus it is pretty simple to do. don't you just love finding accurate dowels? what a pain it is. I bring a block pre drilled and measure them when I buy (G)
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:

Wouldn't have to be a triangle; off-side could be any aesthetic shape. Be stronger, too. Use the brass rod for the pivot: less friction, and you don't have to find the good dowels. Oooh--use two short brass dowels with a compression spring in the middle. Think watch-band pins. No ugly holes in the sides...
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It was somewhere outside Barstow when Steve Knight

I have a user-made block plane dating to the '20s or '30s. It has one of these pivoting pins, an oval with one flattened surface. Assembly is quite neat - one side is a small circular hole to take the tenon pin, the other is a clearance hole to allow it to be installed. Because it's an oval, the clearance hole is rotated 90 so that the pin is only loose when the iron is out. Normally the tenon pin is pushed to one narrow end of the oval hole, where it fits quite snugly.
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Smert' spamionam

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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight

Steve Knight and Ron Hock respond to a question that I put on the group. I quite honestly didn't expect to get this type of response .. and is quite impressive that these two gentlemen take time to help.
Steve, I appreciate your suggestion and will give it a try. Gosh knows ... if it comes from you or Ron .... it is worth doing or trying.
Thank you,
Steve
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no problem at all.
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Steve Knight wrote:
snip

You don't have the Lie Nielsen dowel plate? 3/8" thick hardened steel with accuarate holes. Set it over a doghole in the bench, grab a mallet and tap/whack away!
or
For the more frugal in our midst - one of those metal (not the plastic ones Handy Man foists on the unsuspecting) drill size guides works fairly well and has more sizes. If you can find a machinist's version better yet since they're thicker and harder.
charlie b
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:16:53 -0800, Ron Hock

Ron, I certainly do appreciate your response and help. I'll be opting for the 1/2" dowel. The tenoned cross pin and wedge (first hand made plane) just do not seem to want to work together, and I'm seeing slight movement over a planing session.
Thanks again,
Steve
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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:02:11 -0800, Steve Knight wrote:

I've made cross pins the way Steve describes. You have to be careful because it's easy to split the triangular shaped piece with the hole in it when you are putting the dowel through it. If the dowel is at all tight it may well crack the triangular piece. I cracked a couple cross pins this way.
Robert
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on something like this you want a bit of a loose fit so the piece and pivot.
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