Plywood armor plating

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I read that. I just can't get my head around it. Having said that, I also don't understand civilians, who have never spent a day in the service, who know f*uck-all about warfare, giving orders to the military.
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"Robatoy" wrote in message

in
What's so hard about understanding that, as a military commander charged with a mission, you are duty bound to do your utmost to perform that mission, regardless of whether you have "armored" vehicles for the situation?
Keep firmly in mind that TOE (Table of Organization and Equipment) does NOT normally contain armored transport resources for those units deployed as infantry ... they normally WALK. :)
You improvise and do the best you can ...a time honored solution to the time honored fact of politicians hamstringing the fighting man.
It ain't like this administration invented, or even had that much to do, with the situation under discussion.

Well, it _is_ a Constitutional safeguard which we damn well better fight to preserve.
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[snip]

Shouldn't there be a measured chance of succes in undertaking any mission? Will a man, blindly, go over a hill with a pocket knife to take out a machine-gun nest? (I amplify the hypothesis to illustrate a point) Is there NO point at which a CO says: "Can't be done, my men will not go commit suicide (or commit crimes)." ?
Again... just asking.
00
Rob
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"Robatoy" wrote in message

Tsk, tsk ... or just baiting? In any event, these shallow, irrelevant questions miss the mark completely.
There is no question that we have the tools to do the job. The question is do we have the will?
When the sheep ultimately look up and see, ONCE AGAIN, their loved ones dying in the streets of Hometown, USA, just hope like hell there is enough of that "will" left to get the job done.
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That was totally uncalled for. If you need to resort to that method of debate, count me out.
How about that hockey strike, eh?
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"Robatoy" wrote in message

Then why do you get upset if you were indeed "just asking"?
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I am not upset. No reason to be upset.
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... snip

So, has anybody missed hockey this season?
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

Hockey?
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...

...
So what tools are you suggesting?
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"Nate Perkins" wrote in message

What would you like to hear? ... "Nuclear"?
Sorry, not from me..
All military unit's readiness to perform a mission revolves around two major categories: Men and Materiel. Depending upon the mission, and often political necessities, neither has to be at "full strength", according to the respective table of organization and equipment, to perform effectively.
I wouldn't worry too much about the "tools" at this point ... as noted above, the "will" to finish what we started is the bigger concern, due the fools and dunderheads, and the media that fuels their antics, who refuse to see the consequences of not doing so.
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No, that's definitely what I would not like to hear. Although I am sure that for some there is no limit to the "tools" that would be employed.

Amen.
It's not just a question of the military. There are political, economic, and public relations tools to be used as well. Those that consider only the military tool and neglect the other tools can rapidly find themselves in a losing battle. Treating everything like a nail because all they know how to use is a hammer.
No argument that our armed forces are functioning above all possible expectation. And the problems in Iraq are certainly not the fault of our troops.

I think it is the fools and dunderheads that got us into this mess to begin with. Besides, the rights of free speech and free press are fundamental to a democracy (at least until some dunderhead decides otherwise).
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. Besides, the rights of free speech and free press are

Except, of course, at Harvard ... or anywhere if you're not PC.
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"Nate Perkins" wrote in message

It's hard to disagree with you, but the point is moot ... we're in it up to our eyeballs. The task now is to deal a blow to our avowed enemies while we extricate ourselves, or walk off and stick our heads in the sand, ignoring global reality in the 21st century.

There is also a point when "free" speech provides aid to the enemy. Couple that fact with today's press, that can be bought by either side, and you end up in a dangerous haze that forces the path taken to be based passion and politics, instead of reason.
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There are alternatives besides "staying the course" and "sticking our heads in the sand." It is not a sign of weakness to learn from our mistakes, it is a sign of resiliency and strength. I also believe that now the mistake of going to war has been made, we must succeed ... and adjustment of our approach is much needed. It is not unpatriotic for that to be pointed out.

Nonsense. American ideals are the only thing worth fighting for. Sometimes fighting while upholding those ideals is harder, but in the long run worth it. When you start censoring free press and free speech in the name of supporting the war, then you are already operating in a dangerous haze based on passion and politics.
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"Nate Perkins" wrote in message

That is a damn provincial attitude to the rest of the world, and a perfect example of head-in-the-sand when it comes to global terrorism.

Whoa .. bucko!. Not old enough to remember WWII, or much American history are we?
There is nothing "nonsense" about limits on free speech. AAMOF, it is a historical fact in this country since day 1 (remember the principle of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater), particularly in times of war or national danger ... and if we lose this one, WWII will look like a walk in the park.
Solution: get your head out of the sand and start listening to what is going on around you when it comes to a "free press" also ... Dan Rather and CBS, and the paying of "journalists" by the present administration, sound familiar?
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"Swingman" wrote in message

going
Let me clarify that, Nate ... I meant you in the larger sense, not "you" in particular.
Sorry ...
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No offense taken. It's an interesting discussion.
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No, this idea that somehow we have to give up our freedoms in order to more effectively fight terrorism is wrong. The idea that somehow our democratic process of free speech, free press, and political opposition somehow provides aid to the enemy is wrong, too. It's entirely possible to fight a smart war on terrorism and still protect our ideals. We are not fighting a smart war on terrorism.
There are some people that say we need to permit torture, indefinite imprisonment of American citizens without charge or legal counsel, suspension of habeas corpus, supression of free speech, censorship of news reports from the battlefield -- those people scare me as much as Bin Laden. Countries that allow this wake up one day and find they live in a dictatorship.

Right, I'm not old enough to remember WWII (I'm only in my early-mid 40's). I do remember a fair amount of American history. America's not perfect, but generally it has valued democratic ideals and in the periods of history where that's not been done it's usually viewed negatively later (e.g., Joe McCarthy, Nisei camps, etc).

Yes, there are limits on free speech, especially involving public safety and libel. Of course that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not the political opposition has the right (or duty) to point out the failings of the current leadership. I believe they do. We are talking about whether the process of democratic dissent provides aid to the enemy. I believe it does not.
I agree that the press is not doing as good a job as it ought to. It's not asking the critical questions, it's sloppy, it's partisan. It accepts dodges and nonanswers from our politicians. It's even being bribed by our politicians. But for all its many faults, it's still part of the system of (what used to be and ought to be) essential checks and balances.
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"Nate Perkins" wrote in message

Of course, that is EXACTY what I was talking about. :)

Right on ...

Do you not think that "will" can also be gauged from the amount of ostensible dissent, particularly when the dissent is trumpeted as an agenda by some in the news media"?
What do you think of Tedddy boy calling for a firm pullout date, even knowing that the terroist would benefit immensely from that knowledge? While it is no more than political posturing in his case, it shows a reckless disregard for those in harm's way, IMO. Ask the surviving POW's from RVN what effects the likes of Jane Fonda had on their existence as prisoners.

While I can't disagree, and that is the ideal However, I am afraid that may be rapidly disappearing. What makes me say that is my perspective of approximately 50 year of seeing how narrow the field has become in all forms of media here where I live. From a three newspaper town one newspaper in a city of 4 million, from numerous radio stations to most being owned by one company.
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