Philisophical Woodworking Question

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been discussion that another mistranslation in the Bible has popped up, and instead of a carpenter, Joseph was actually an architect.
My grandfather was a builder back in the 40's and early 50's. I sell wholesale lumber today to "builders" who are nothing more than contractors and glorified bankers. My grandfather actually designed and built the various structures from the foundation up. I suspect that 2000 years ago, a man making his living with his hands probably was also the architect of the same projects.
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Sun, Dec 5, 2004, 2:15pm (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net (mel) says: <snip> I suspect that 2000 years ago, a man making his living with his hands probably was also the architect of the same projects.
They figure that if Joseph was actually an architect, instead of a carpenter, he is probably the architect who designed, laid out a town near Jereuselum (sp ?), and then oversaw the actual construction of the entire town. Supposedly assisted by his son (stepson?) Jesus. No hands on involved, or so it is thought. Don't know if they'll ever be able to prove that par or not. Interesting to know, if they could. So, possibly, instead of a rather broke carpenter, Joseph may well have been a well-to-do architect.
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind. - Dr Seuss
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A Jewish curse in Greek.
--
mare

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Aramaic, I should assume.
I used to wonder about my dad's outbursts in Ukrainian when I was young, until I saw grandma's face when he used one without knowing she was there....
message wrote:

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mare wrote:

My mother (a good lady of Norwegian extraction) says she always swears in Swedish. The good Lord certainly speaks Norwegian but as certainly does not speak Swedish.     a drip of inherited wisdom from jo4hn's john,     jo4hn
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But...the swear words are nearly the same, unless she knew some that I have not yet learned.
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Dave Hinz wrote:

Relayed your comment to mom and her comment was something like: "He's probably just another heathen Swede". :-)     mahalo,     jo4hn
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I. Beg. Your. Pardon. Harrumpf. I've got my ancestry traced back rather a long way, and we're _well_ on the right side of the border, thankyouverymuch. Visited an ancestral farm this summer, it's been in the family for rather a long time: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b%92&s $0
We've been invited to the 650th year reunion coming up in 2008. The man living there now is my 17th cousin, but he could pass for my mom's brother; it's spooky how similar they look.
So...what are these uniquely Norwegian swear words, exactly? Anything less mild than, ahem, "Pig's butt"?
Dave Hinz
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Dave Hinz wrote:

Hey! No fair! What language is that? The machine translation (I assumed norwegian) is about as bad as the original:
"Previous letter in trykkrekkeflgeb.3( nr.293) Next letter in trykkrekkeflge (b.3 nr.295) b.III s.240 abbreviate Three Mnd kundgjre , that Harald paa Grove and his Housewife Ingeborg sold at Gudbrand Thordssn resbol in Tokestad paa Prepare Ringsaker ). fount Efter Orig. p. Perg. in Norwegian Rigsarkiv. Segl fails. lay 294. date 29 June 1358. location Baldeshol. Brevtekst ( at it printed the edition ): Ollum monnum eim sem etta bref sea eder h oe yra does not send Pall finish Grfsimi Lean finish Baldissole fair enough iriker baghghe q. g. fair enough sina yder gerom additional kunniktt att finish Peters canteen dagh varom additional finish Bal - these finish Nose finish ridiu are rikiss herald vyrduleghs mister mister Have - the wife meder guds nad Noreghs konoghs sam fair enough h oe yrdum finish att au heldo simultane saman finish inni halfuo Haralder finish Grove finish Nose fair enough Jngi - biorgh the wife his fair enough Gudbrander orders son meder i skilorde att fyrnefder Haralder fair enough Jngibiorg vittu i viderganghu att au hafdo slt fyrnefdum Gudbrande iii aura bowl jrder j Tokastadum am liger finish Prepare frialst fair enough himolt meder allum lunnyndum am supplemented ligha vttan guard fair enough jnnan fair enough vpp drill match penigh fair enough oe fsta () fair enough alla ar j millum am ( in kaupp ira arrived fair enough supplemented sanynda here vm settum additional vor jnsigli firir etta bref am gort stayed are fair enough digi sem a chap sighir."
[Roughly speaking]
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

Musta sent your spelll checker around the bend?
"I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt."
Anonymous
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Swingman wrote:

[hogwash snip] Boy, you guys don't know nothin'. That is a telling of the story of the last of the flying lutefisk which was shot down by Olaf Trygvesson in the year 1043. Note that he is the father of every person in the western world because 1) he personally fathered 43 sons and one daughter and, 2) if you figure the number of your forebears at 4 generations per 100 years, the number in 1043 is 11,468,213 which was the approximate population of the western world at the time.     ya sure then,     jonsson
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Why is Olaf's name sounding _very_ familiar to me right now? Can't place him.

Well, that ignores a few things. In centuries past, the liklihood that you'd meet, let alone marry, someone from more than 50 miles from your home was very low. So, inbreeding at some level would occur, and the number of ancestors is obviously going to be less than the population of the world. Clearly, the chance of Gudbrand here having an ancestor in, say, Japan, is prety low. Likewise Polynesia, and so on. I've got one such situation where, 15 or so generations ago, I have a couple who are married and are third cousins, one generation removed. Maybe they didn't know, maybe they did and it was (rightfully) decided to be far enough apart. I'm guessing they knew, because culturally the Norse people put more than a little emphasis on genealogy. The record keeping is very precise, and being able to find records online from, say, 1358, is impressive.
Dave Hinz
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Well, we seem to have wandered. Which is pretty well normal for some of you. While well and good, it still doesn't answer the basic questions.
What does - appropriate religion or ethnic group inserted here - say when he injures a thumb with a mighty blow of a hammer, or otherwise injures parts of the body.
Would a German say, "Sheis, sheis, sheis, Gott in Himmel"? Would an Italian (in Italy, not the US) say, "Mama Mia"? Does a Buddhist say something like, "Buddha on a crutch"? Does a Moslem say, "Allah Damn"? Does an athiest say, "Ow, the laws of chance caught up with me big time"?
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind. - Dr Seuss
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How about Quebec French? Lived in Montreal for 12 years when I was a kid. Only French I remember is how to swear.
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Tue, Dec 7, 2004, 9:50pm (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net (DaveHinz) says: <snip> being able to find records online from, say, 1358, is impressive.
Highly. My mother is researching our family. We do know we had people (father's side) on both sides of the Civil War, including one in Andersonvlle, and one in the prison in New York. Very hard to find records anywhere, as people will have different spellings, different dates, and even different birth locations listed.
Example: Birth certificate has date, location of birth (town, county), and name Marriage certificate (and it is know it's the same person), different spelling. Death certificate, often has different spelling, different date of birth, and it is still the same person. Then finding where they are actually buried is a different task altogether.
She has reliably been able to get back to about 1900, after that records are very hazy. We do know my dad's relatives came from Ireland. Many of them probably came thru NC, to TN and KY. Seems some others came thru NY, down to VA, NC, etc. On my mother's side, they seem to have been Dutch and English. She has a very interesting diary of one in the Civil War, out west. Neat read.
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind. - Dr Seuss
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Dave Hinz wrote:

[snip] A king of Norway, see http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Olaf%20Trygvesson for a quickie.     mahalo,     jo4hn
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Middle Norse, mixed with more than a little Latin. The "summary" at the top is in Danish.


(snip)
Less roughly, "3 men of the King's Magistrate witness that Haral of Lunde, and his wife Ingeborg, sold to Gudbrand Thordsson (my ancestor) 3 units of land, called Tokstad, in Forberg (in Ringsaker).
The text of the brief is in middle norse, the summary was written in the 1700s or 1800s. It names the 3 magistrates (Paul of Graefsaeimi, Godin of Baldissole, and Aerik Baghghe), as agents of King Hakonar. I have a real translation done by an Icelandic friend, but that's the gist. Later, Gudbrand bought the rest of Tokstad from this couple, and the bill of sale says that they (Harald and Ingeborg) are free to live at Tokstad, in the smaller house, until they die, as long as there is "peace between the families" or words to that effect. It was really cool to see the main house and the smaller house, and based on the architecture of at least the main house, it's the one from that time.
There are timbers in the basement of the main house, that someone from the local university dated to around the year 1000. Not sure what kind of wood they were, though, there was no discernable grain or figure and they were very dark.
Dave Hinz
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Dave Hinz wrote:

Thanks. As a non-Latin, non-Norse speaker, non-Danish speaking person I was baffled by the combination.

Hmm. All things (including my erroneous choice of "from" language) considered, the software translator didn't do as badly as I'd have expected.
I'm dazzled that the records are so conveniently available.

It's cool even to me - and I don't have any [known] connection. Is this recordkeeping typical? Do researchers/historians have access to such data for all/most families or holdings?

Next time you visit, bring back pictures!
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Get in line. That doc and the 2 other pieces of documentation I have for Gudbrand (later land sale, and a 1397 probate record divvying up the property between his sons) are equally interesting but tantalyzingly cryptic until translated.

That was probably in the Danish summary, which is close enough to modern Danish that an e-translator wouldn't suck much worse than normal on it.

Yes. The churchbooks for Norway are, unfortunately, rarely if ever available before the 1730s. However, the legal records of land sales and probate are. The governmental agencies also recorded people moving into and out of areas, so those records can show where/when/who was moving around.
Sometimes the only record of a person you can find, is the church's bookkeeping where the survivors paid to have the churchbell rung at their funeral.

The "Diplomatarium Norvegicum" from which this comes, is a collection of 21,000 such documents from the middle-ages, roughly 1200 to 1600 AD. Basically, any old doc of this type that they could find has been translated and transcribed, and put online.
Norway also has the 1664-1666 census online, which unfortunately only lists the male landowners and their male sons. The 1801, 1865, 1880, and 1900 census are all online, searchable by name, location, age, place of birth, etc etc etc. Makes researching there much easier than, say, anywhere else.


I've got gigabytes of 'em. How's your net connection? I'll send you the URL as soon as things are back put together, webserver-wise.
Dave
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only Jesus was a woodworker. Do you suppose he ever hit his thumb with a hammer? And if so, what would he have said?
I have a feeling that if he was sure-footed enough to walk on water he probably never missed
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