OT: Two parties

[Dave Balderstone]

I call bullshit. When have you ever seen facts enter an election campaign?

[Han]

"HeyBub" wrote in news:hrudncAw0JLbhfvWnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I don't know anymore what is good. If everyone is running around with concealed weapons, what prevents large scale shootouts?

Here in the NY area an off-duty cop was killed by uniformed cops because he ran after a guy who had robbed someone (I believe), and met uniformed cops who were coming to a report of a man with a gun. The uniformed cops didn't hear him (or something like that) when he identified himself (or not, I don't remember). Of course skin color may have played a role ...

[Han]

Dave Balderstone wrote in news:310120101855286085%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca:

You think that is wishful thin king on my part? Maybe democracy isn't such a good idea after all??

Just feeding the righteous ... (snickering sarcastically) - nothing personal REALLY!

[Swingman]

Perhaps carrying them in plain view would be better? Remember, "an armed society tends to be a polite society". ;)

Don't laugh ... RVN, circa 1969, somewhere in the jungle on a temporary artillery firebase, miles from nowhere and no way off, 160 +/- enlisted men and 5 officers, all armed/ammoed to the teeth with rifles and hand grenades, none of whom wanted to be there, and a good many drafee activists from urban jungles back home who had a hardon for "da man" ... in short, a microcosm of ALL the socials ills of the country, armed, on barely an acre of land.

...go ahead, try to tell me something I don't understand about "armed societies". :)

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:Ro2dnXfV76Wes_vWnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

1969 was the year I came to the US. I was rather convinced "they" couldn't get me for their damned war. I believe it was rather unpopular here too, at least among many people, though not all. I was told that some people out there went off their rocker and did something called fragging. Didn't sound nice.

Don't get me wrong, I admire the guys who were out there despite everything. I do think that at least initially after they came back (the ones who did) were treated badly. I try to make up for what was done to them whenever I can, but (luckily) I have little interaction with the patients who visit the VA Hospital in Manhattan, where I work in research.

As you know, Karl, I come from a rather unarmed society (Holland), and, moreover, I don't want a firearm near me, because I am probably not eventempered enough.

BTW, what should I look for on iTunes to see/get your music?

[Swingman]

A not uncommon occurrence ... My First Sergeant (one of the finest men I've ever known, with whom I entrusted our perimeter defense on a nightly basis, and thus our very lives, and a black man himself), was fragged with a thermite grenade by that very same bunch during that six month stint. (My gun (M-79 grenade launcher with buckshot round) was bigger than his, and I slept with it under my arm and with one eye open). :(

For starters, do a power search from iTunes: "Wild River Band"

"Vol II" is my favorite of the two albums with WRB. Depending upon your taste in music, and if you want just two songs: "Don't Cry Baby", and "Sugar Moon" both which got a lot of regional airplay a few years back. (I kick off the first, a rarity for a bassist, as you'll hear), but listen to them all and take your choice. :)

[CW]

Morals (you'd be amazed how many people still have those) and the knowledge that murder is illegal and carries heavy penalties. I have had a carry permit for the last 28 years. It's amazing how many people seem to think a carry permit gives one the right to shoot people at will. I have no more right to do that than you do. There do seem to be plenty of people that think that criminals should have the right to kill or injure someone without having to worry that they may be the one being fitted for a body bag. BTW, if you are wondering if I have ever needed the gun, the answer is yes. About two weeks ago, a knife wielding slimebag tried to rob me, late at night at an ATM. The sight of my 38 was enough to make him think that that was a bad idea.

[Swingman]

Good on you! You were obviously raised with a sense of right and wrong, and the fortitude to insure that you will not be a victim of those who weren't.

In short, the more we have like you, the better for everyone ... this very country's history is full of examples of the necessity to protect yourself and your family from bullies and thieves, mostly by arming yourself with the necessary tools.

The sheeple would forego that option in the warm and fuzzy hope that government will ultimately protect them.

Ha!

[Mark & Juanita]

... snip

If a person recognizes that within themselves, then that is fine and I don't see a problem with that. It is when those people then project that same temperament onto others and want to demand by force of law that those other people should not be allowed to choose to arm themselves for their self-protection either. Just because one is armed doesn't mean that person feels that they are invincible or not to be trifled with, it just means they have chosen to utilize a tool that permits them to keep themselves safe in the times when seconds count and the police are only minutes away.

[Swingman]

In short, there are those who will put themselves in harms way, out of a sense of duty, and to protect those whom, for whatever reason, do not have the temperament, will, opportunity, or means, to protect themselves.

There is absolutely nothing morally wrong with being in either category.

But, for the first aforementioned, it is a trait upon which our society has been built ... the value of which can only be denied to the detriment of all.

[J. Clarke]

You might be surprised. I remember a woman I used to live with setting out deliberately to make me mad--she succeeded. I finally ended up punching out a door (her parting shot, after that, was "you're such a coward you won't even hit a woman"). During most of this conversation my hand was on a table three inches away from a loaded .38. The thought of shooting her never crossed my mind--wringing her neck, yes, kicking her, yes, pounding her head against a wall, yes, punching her, yes, but I don't think of shooting someone as a means of emotional release any more than I think of cutting dovetails as a means of emotional release. It's not a matter of "self control". It's that when I shoot it's all about precision, not all about hurting something, and doing something finicky and precise doesn't release anger.

[Dave Balderstone]

Are you an American? If so, why do you think you live in a democracy? You don't.

Well, it's not like you're strong on facts...

[Dave Balderstone]

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

True on both sides of the US/Canada border...

[Swingman]

Be gentle now, you old fart curmudgeon, he's one of the good guys!

[Dave Balderstone]

Don't get me started on what Canada did for the Dutch... My great uncle came home a serious mess after WWII and liberating Holland.

And now they kowtow to the islamists and prosecute free speech...

[Robatoy]

They're heading in the same direction as the French. They want their country back and life is no longer as simple for a muslim as it once was.

[billw]

In this forum about woodworking and tools, the people posting here should know tools better than most people. Firearms are a tool, just that, nothing else. But, any tool can be used as a weapon. Just because firearms aren't allowed, doesn't mean that the person is unarmed... I'm in that awkward stage of life. I call it pre-geezer and I'm never unarmed. There is always a tool nearby that can be used for defense if nneded. It's the human intelect that's the true weapon. Mine has only been used for defence. I don't get a sense of power when I'm armed with a firearm, or any other weapon. But, I'm armed... It might be a pocket knife. (razor sharp and easy opening) a walking cane, a pencil or whatever is at hand. Hammer, chair leg, the car I'm driving, etc. Once I traveled to Canada on a sailboat and when we cleared customs the custom officer told me that he had to take every weapon we had on board to his office and keep them till we left Canada... So, I handed him the boat hook, (I could whack him with it), a coil of rope, ( I could choke him with it), a can of gas and my lighter... (used right he would give me his own firearm and I might not have to even use the lighter...) he said, NO! I said Weapons... you know, guns. Then I told him, you don't understand, a gun is just a tool, but any tool combined with evil intent can be a weapon. If you think that someone who doesn't have a firearm is unarmed, one day you will have a fatal lapse in judgement... You better change jobs quick. You could see the wave of revelation on his face. He said, "I never thought of it that way!" I told him now that he knows, it's time to change the way his fellow officers are taught.

Yes, I've defended my self. I've been mugged 3 times and never given up anything. I've had an armed intruder break through my back door at

2 am. He peed the floor when he heard me pump my shotgun. The officers didn't get there for 30 minutes... Without that shotgun, I'm sure that 30 minutes would have been fatal for someone? Did he have an edge? Yes, he had a 38 special in his hand and surprise on his side. Did I still have an edge, yes, he didn't know I'd cripple or kill him when I made the oportunity... but, I didn't have too. That's why my shotgun is still handy...

Here's a quote that says it all...

------------------------------ If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws.

-- Edward Abbey

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:50:30 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

[Upscale]

Maybe his thinking might have changed, but he was and is still obligated to confiscate any unlicensed firearm. Highly unlikely his actions will change in that regard, whatever thinking he might indulge in.

[HeyBub]

Well, there you are: cops shooting cops. Cops, in fact, shoot far more innocent people per person than those licensed to carry a handgun. This is because, probably, the armed citizen, on the scene, KNOWS who the bad guy is; when the cops arrive, they often have to guess.

The point you raise comes up during the concealed handgun debate. Sometimes it's framed as "What is a cop to do when he comes on a shootout where several people are armed?" In reality, that almost never happens. Most of the time when the cops arrive the original bad guy is dead or wounded.

As for knowing what's good, it's tough. But whether good or bad, weapons are what the people want. Only two states (Wisconsin & Illinois), plus D.C., absolutely prohibit concealed handguns. Thirty-eight states are "shall issue" states. "Shall issue" means that if you meet the statutory requirements for a license, you get it. Ten states are "discretionary"; that is, some official - like the country sheriff - can deny the application.

In my state, a license holder may carry is weapon just about anywhere. The only places specifically off-limits are courtrooms, jails, schools, and beer joints. A license holder can carry in a restaurant, a church, a hospital, the non-secure portions of an airport, on any bit of property owned or controlled by any agency of government (parks, libraries, sewage treatment plants). He can carry his weapon in the state capitol or governor's office.

[HeyBub]

Me too. I've been accosted three times by what I thought were would-be muggers - twice in a Home Depot parking lot. I reached the probability that they were muggers because: a) They were carrying makeshift weapons, in one case a tire-iron, b) The ignored my command to "Stop! Come no closer!"

All three did, however, stop when I exposed my weapon (pointed at the ground).

All were reported to the store managers. One store manager called the cops. The cop took notes, said I did the right thing, and left.

What you and I did is called a "defensive use of a firearm." Best estimates range from two to eight million defensive uses per year.

Whatever the number, that's at least a million crimes that were never committed.