OT: Two parties

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On 1/31/2010 7:04 PM, Han wrote:

Perhaps carrying them in plain view would be better? Remember, "an armed society tends to be a polite society". ;)
Don't laugh ... RVN, circa 1969, somewhere in the jungle on a temporary artillery firebase, miles from nowhere and no way off, 160 +/- enlisted men and 5 officers, all armed/ammoed to the teeth with rifles and hand grenades, none of whom wanted to be there, and a good many drafee activists from urban jungles back home who had a hardon for "da man" ... in short, a microcosm of ALL the socials ills of the country, armed, on barely an acre of land.
...go ahead, try to tell me something I don't understand about "armed societies". :)
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1969 was the year I came to the US. I was rather convinced "they" couldn't get me for their damned war. I believe it was rather unpopular here too, at least among many people, though not all. I was told that some people out there went off their rocker and did something called fragging. Didn't sound nice.
Don't get me wrong, I admire the guys who were out there despite everything. I do think that at least initially after they came back (the ones who did) were treated badly. I try to make up for what was done to them whenever I can, but (luckily) I have little interaction with the patients who visit the VA Hospital in Manhattan, where I work in research.
As you know, Karl, I come from a rather unarmed society (Holland), and, moreover, I don't want a firearm near me, because I am probably not eventempered enough.
BTW, what should I look for on iTunes to see/get your music?
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Han
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On 1/31/2010 7:42 PM, Han wrote:

A not uncommon occurrence ... My First Sergeant (one of the finest men I've ever known, with whom I entrusted our perimeter defense on a nightly basis, and thus our very lives, and a black man himself), was fragged with a thermite grenade by that very same bunch during that six month stint. (My gun (M-79 grenade launcher with buckshot round) was bigger than his, and I slept with it under my arm and with one eye open). :(

For starters, do a power search from iTunes: "Wild River Band"
"Vol II" is my favorite of the two albums with WRB. Depending upon your taste in music, and if you want just two songs: "Don't Cry Baby", and "Sugar Moon" both which got a lot of regional airplay a few years back. (I kick off the first, a rarity for a bassist, as you'll hear), but listen to them all and take your choice. :)
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Thank you, Karl! Purchased that album. Now listening ...
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Han
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On 2/1/2010 8:17 AM, Han wrote:

Thank you! ... the band appreciates your purchase. :)
I hope you enjoy the genre (Western Swing) as much we do in keeping it alive.
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I haven't been exposed to it too much, but now I'll be thinking of you, my friend!!
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Han
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Han wrote:

... snip

If a person recognizes that within themselves, then that is fine and I don't see a problem with that. It is when those people then project that same temperament onto others and want to demand by force of law that those other people should not be allowed to choose to arm themselves for their self-protection either. Just because one is armed doesn't mean that person feels that they are invincible or not to be trifled with, it just means they have chosen to utilize a tool that permits them to keep themselves safe in the times when seconds count and the police are only minutes away.

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There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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On 1/31/2010 8:50 PM, Mark & Juanita wrote:

In short, there are those who will put themselves in harms way, out of a sense of duty, and to protect those whom, for whatever reason, do not have the temperament, will, opportunity, or means, to protect themselves.
There is absolutely nothing morally wrong with being in either category.
But, for the first aforementioned, it is a trait upon which our society has been built ... the value of which can only be denied to the detriment of all.
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"It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag." -- Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC
True on both sides of the US/Canada border...
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In this forum about woodworking and tools, the people posting here should know tools better than most people. Firearms are a tool, just that, nothing else. But, any tool can be used as a weapon. Just because firearms aren't allowed, doesn't mean that the person is unarmed... I'm in that awkward stage of life. I call it pre-geezer and I'm never unarmed. There is always a tool nearby that can be used for defense if nneded. It's the human intelect that's the true weapon. Mine has only been used for defence. I don't get a sense of power when I'm armed with a firearm, or any other weapon. But, I'm armed... It might be a pocket knife. (razor sharp and easy opening) a walking cane, a pencil or whatever is at hand. Hammer, chair leg, the car I'm driving, etc. Once I traveled to Canada on a sailboat and when we cleared customs the custom officer told me that he had to take every weapon we had on board to his office and keep them till we left Canada... So, I handed him the boat hook, (I could whack him with it), a coil of rope, ( I could choke him with it), a can of gas and my lighter... (used right he would give me his own firearm and I might not have to even use the lighter...) he said, NO! I said Weapons... you know, guns. Then I told him, you don't understand, a gun is just a tool, but any tool combined with evil intent can be a weapon. If you think that someone who doesn't have a firearm is unarmed, one day you will have a fatal lapse in judgement... You better change jobs quick. You could see the wave of revelation on his face. He said, "I never thought of it that way!" I told him now that he knows, it's time to change the way his fellow officers are taught.
Yes, I've defended my self. I've been mugged 3 times and never given up anything. I've had an armed intruder break through my back door at 2 am. He peed the floor when he heard me pump my shotgun. The officers didn't get there for 30 minutes... Without that shotgun, I'm sure that 30 minutes would have been fatal for someone? Did he have an edge? Yes, he had a 38 special in his hand and surprise on his side. Did I still have an edge, yes, he didn't know I'd cripple or kill him when I made the oportunity... but, I didn't have too. That's why my shotgun is still handy...
Here's a quote that says it all... ------------------------------ If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws. -- Edward Abbey
On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:50:30 -0700, Mark & Juanita

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Maybe his thinking might have changed, but he was and is still obligated to confiscate any unlicensed firearm. Highly unlikely his actions will change in that regard, whatever thinking he might indulge in.
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Han wrote:

You might be surprised. I remember a woman I used to live with setting out deliberately to make me mad--she succeeded. I finally ended up punching out a door (her parting shot, after that, was "you're such a coward you won't even hit a woman"). During most of this conversation my hand was on a table three inches away from a loaded .38. The thought of shooting her never crossed my mind--wringing her neck, yes, kicking her, yes, pounding her head against a wall, yes, punching her, yes, but I don't think of shooting someone as a means of emotional release any more than I think of cutting dovetails as a means of emotional release. It's not a matter of "self control". It's that when I shoot it's all about precision, not all about hurting something, and doing something finicky and precise doesn't release anger.

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I appreciate all your comments. Indeed!
Maybe I'm brainwashed by the urban liberals, but I do fear unlicensed arms in the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Until everyone who has acquired firearms can prove they can handle them as the arms should be handled, I am in favor of laws controlling possession and sale of firearms. I do realize that there are other arms around. And I am very happy that I have not been victimized in any way other than the 2 robberies our home experienced - in our absence, once in Cambridge, Mass, and once in Queens, New York. ANd I do walk across midtown Manhattan every day on my way to work.
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Han
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Han wrote:

Define "people who shouldn't have them". At one time blacks were considered to be "people who shouldn't have them". At another it was the Irish. Under current law people who have been convicted of a felony or who have been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution are prohibited from possessing firearms. There is a background check system in place that is intended to prevent sales to such persons--if it does not work the reason is that police and the courts are not diligent in entering the information into the database.

We have such laws. The question is whether there should be more such laws or whether the existing laws are excessive. How does one "prove they can handle them as arms should be handled" and what does that accomplish? If someone deliberately sets out to commit murder then being able to "handle them as arms should be handled" increases the probability of success in that endeavor, it doesn't decrease it. If your concern is that such "proof" will reduce accidents, the number of accidental shootings in the US is small and decreasing--one is more likely to die in a bicycle accident than an accidental shooting--so why do we suddenly need new laws to prevent those accidents? If you think that some licensing system will prevent a person who wants to commit murder from doing so, you really aren't thinking things through.

In the worst mass murder in US history the weapon was commercial airliners. In the second worst it was fertilizer. In the third worst the weapon was a can of gasoline. "Arms" is a matter of attitude, not a matter of gadgets.

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wrote:

I'm drawing a blank on #3...
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scrawled the following:

Do you realize that by enacting laws which remove the legal arms, only the illegal arms are left on the streets, in the hands of exactly the people you DON'T want to have them? Yes, you've been heavily brainsoiled by the urban libtards, Han.

Don't just feel happy, feel lucky. I hope you'll tell us when get mugged by an ex-con with an illegal gun in the city which takes guns away from law-abiding citizens. It shouldn't be long now. And I want to hear you cuss out Bloomberg. OK? ;)
-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw
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I know I am lucky, to an extent. I'll be real lucky when I retire, (soon) <grin>. I do think that from the emphasis on punishment for all crimes, small and large, starting in the Giuliani era, when also demographics changed, to the continued emphasis on enforcement of laws, including those governing the police, things have gotten better all over the area. I don't think that laws limiting gun possession in the urban NE limits my freedoms.
And yes, luck has a lot of importance on a single personal level. Just like driving drunk can go fine lots of times until one time it goes wrong. Too bad for the other guy/gal. I don't want guns in the hands of just about everyone. And I will let the police do their job.
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Han
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You do realize that it's not the job of the police to protect you? They are under *no* obligation to, even if by accident they happen to be close. For that, you are on you own.
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So you're saying you are perfectly willing to be a crime victim secure in the knowledge that the police can then do their job. Their job is to track down and arrest criminals. One does not become a criminal until they have committed a crime. Until they do so, police have no way, nor do they have any obligation, to do anything. Say your neighbor threatens to kill you. You call a cop. The cop goes over and asks the neighbor if he threatened to kill you. He says no. The cop comes back and tells you that since no crime has been committed, there is nothing he can do but he assures you that when the guy does kill you, he will come back and arrest him. Make you feel safe?
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Han wrote:

The police? You must STILL be drunk!
Police don't prevent crime directly - they investigate AFTER the crime has taken place. Admittedly when someone calls 911, the crime is still in progress, but most of the time it's over with. Speaking as an ex-cop, I can tell you that maybe five times out of 100 we see the perp. But one hundred times out of one hundred we see the victim.
Remember the maxims: "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away!" or "I carry a pistol because I can't carry a cop" or "I have a weapon for exactly the same reason a policeman does - no more, no less"
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