OT: Social Security Admin or scam?

Yes, I got that much. The paragraph sort of reminds me of some of the things I write late at night. When I read it back that night, I read words that are no longer there when I see it posted the next day...

Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise as well qualified.

In addition, it is necessary from the outset to communicate various concepts to both the students and their parents and from them to the teachers and administrators from the outset. This includes things like school rules, schedules, and vaccination requirements.

I think we all agree on that, especially most immiigrant parents. I recall a quote form one Texan who said he wants his children to learn in English so they can become engineers, doctors, and lawyers. The school system wants to teach them in Spanish so they can flip burgers and mow lawns.

Reply to
fredfighter
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First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to have managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so much less capable than they were?

Initially, there is a potential problem, particularly w/ some of the adults, granted. Still, it's typically easier to find a part-time translator than an instructor in places like we are here--we have many varieties of SE Asians, etc., from the influx in the 60s that are now, for the most part, successful small business owners, etc., while the packing plant jobs are now Hispanic-speaking. But, I can think of only a couple of the various Asian-speaking folks who have ever chosen to become teachers and are in the schools, yet many do translations as needed on a "on-call" basis.

I don't see that from the school system (here anyway), but I do see the end result it has from many of the social "do-gooders" that want to maintain "diversity" at the sake of assimilation, thus prolonging and deepening the isolation from the mainstream economy.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

Many of our parents and grandparents came from other countries. The faster they learned English, the faster they got good paying jobs and opened businesses. They figured it out for themselves, not with the government holding their hand.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Respectfully I am not missing the point at all. Give a little / take a lot comes to mind. We are just enabling the fact that there is no reason the learn English. Give a few things in multiple languages and then the demand will be for more. Next thing you know, we will be searching street signs for English, like we do with instruction manuals.

If you accommodate / nurture the guise that not knowing English is ok, the problem will only worsen.

I am not saying that if you cannot read English you should not pay taxes. If you cannot read English than pay someone who can figure your taxes for you. Do not expect the others to pay (through taxes to translate) for your lack of knowledge. For that matter why should a foreign speaker who took the time to learn English pay for another who refuses?

Point blank; name me one US citizen that who has stood out for the better of this country who could not speak English. That leaves out 100% of the military, as English is required. Let us dwell on why English is mandatory in the military. Because at the extreme, lives are on the line. This can easily be translated into living in the US. Not that lives are on the line in normal US living. It is well known that nobody can function 100% unless there is a common form of communication.

For Pete's sake we have English as the most popular second language throughout the world. Why? Because of the affiliation of the US. You have people in other countries learning English, not only because of the US but the fact that it seems to becoming the most international language. Can we not expect the same for the people that are actually living on our soil?

Chris

Reply to
Chris

Not really.

I've been out of retirement a couple three times to ease the transition for Russian kids. Since they are illiterate in both languages, it makes perfect sense to teach the one they'll use to find a toilet or burger in real life. The worksheets have a picture of a frog to prompt for a short "o" sound, or spelling, which might as well be f-r-o-g as l-ya-g-u-sh-k-a.

Pull up a chair and sit side-by side in the classroom, where they can get a feel and an ear for English in use rather than as some sort of mathematical construct as we teach other languages. Don't isolate them. ESL is a bad hoax in almost every case, because the people instructed are, by and large, illiterate in their native language.

The best teacher is the playground....

Reply to
George

All ESL programs that I have been around do use a single english speaking teacher to teach students whose native language may be anything. The program that uses a teacher with the same language background as the students is called bi-lingual education in my neck of the woods. Usually the bi-lingual programs are where there are substantial populations speaking a similar language (i.e. spanish in the southwest, etc.) The ESL programs (as I know them) normally occur where there are small populations using various languages. In the District where I work we have a number of students with varying language backgrounds. This is mostly due to being a suburb of Pittsburgh with fairly easy transport to the various Universities in the area. Many foreign University students live with their families (including their school age children) in the apartment buildings in this community. We also have a number of families in the area that sponser kids from other areas (we had a dozen or so from Kosovo last year). These add to the stew. The classes in the ESL program while small (maybe 6 or 8 students) may have several languages as the native spoken language of the students. The teacher may speak none of them. . The ESL program does not try to teach the students academics in their language, it trys to teach them english in conjunction with their academic studies.

Dave Hall

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- G.B. Shaw

Reply to
Dave Hall

All of us had relatives who came from somewhere else, including so-called Native Americans. It's just that their ancestors go here 1500 or 2000 years ago and ran off the previous inhabitants longer ago than anyone else.

That said, the government help wasn't available back then, so the harder workers did best (assuming at least average intelligence, whatever that is). Today, in many cases, the harder workers do best and whine less, so we hear less about them. The fastest learning immigrants are those who come from a culture where learning was valued. I think that may always have been the case. It may always be the case. If school is viewed as a way to coop the kids up for the day, keep 'em out from underfoot at home, then the learning process involved is secondary and will get short shrift. That's hard enough for native English speakers. It's even harder for those starting without the most useful language in this country.

Reply to
Charlie Self

I think that's what I said? :)

I used bilingual instructors in referring to the .

However, ESL here deals mostly w/ Hispanics (school district is up to something like 60% now, a large fraction of those are brand new every year). We still have sizable fraction of Asians as well as German-speaking as well. All in a population base

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

Well, I'd call those details.

Reply to
fredfighter

Here I disagree. I do not see accomodations for non-English speakers making it at all harder for English Speakers. It hasn't made anything harder for me and I don't anticipate it becomming that way.

I think the products that have manuals/instructions printed in a huge variety of languages are typically intedned for sale in the same package in many different countries, though I suppose that may not always be the case.

Reply to
fredfighter

In general, the manuals aimed at the U.S. eastern market are usually printed in English, Spanish and French. That's actually Northeast needs, as there are very few French speakers who wander this far away from Quebec.

As long as we continue to teach English as the primary language, insisting that immigrants learn it, we won't have problems with multi-language signage and similar fun stuff. When we stop, for whatever reason, the pressures from those who don't speak English for convenience items will increase. Given the butt kissing mode most politicians live in these days, it won't take long to change.

Reply to
Charlie Self

...

Those products aren't "aimed" anywhere--they're simply generic to cover all markets. We get the same stuff here in the midwest/southwest as there. The choice of languages is one of the manufacturer for how many to print it in rather than where the product is going for almost everything.

That's already an issue in the southern tier states w/ Spanish... :(

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

you find them within those same communities. if there are enough people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion even remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers within it, and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly americans who don't figure there is any value to speaking more than one language.

Reply to
bridger

man, enough is enough. do you not see the irony in posting your english only crap in english that is so bad as to be unintelligible? please proofread what you write before you post. you are smart enough to be able to form coherent sentences, aren't you?

what, you want instructions manuals for stuff made in china for sale worldwide to be in english only? don't hold your breath.

but being barely literate in english and completely illiterate in everything else is just fine, eh?

but chinese is gaining fast. once there are more chinese as second language speakers in the world than english as second language speakers, you're going to switch to speaking only chinese, right?

Reply to
bridger

|||| If I interpret, Chris is saying teach all ESL students w/ |||| native-speaking English instructors, not in their native tongue. ||| ||| Perhaps so. If so, that's the kind of stupidity that needs to ||| be railed against. Teaching English to students who speak ||| Bantu is much easier for a Bantu speaker who is a conmpetent ||| ESL teacher than for a non-Bantu speaker who is otherwise ||| as well qualified. || || First, where you gonna' find one--particularly in small communities || where many of the newest immigrants end up working in places like || packing plants, etc.? Second, the Eyetalians, et al. seemed to || have managed in the 20s and before--why are the current kids so || much less capable than they were? | | you find them within those same communities. if there are enough | people of a given ethnicity in one place to make this discussion | even remotely worthwhile, that community will have some teachers | within it, and some english speakers. remember, it's mostly | americans who don't figure there is any value to speaking more than | one language.

As a short-term (2 yrs) ESL volunteer teacher, I was surprised to find that my students /knew/ English fairly well - but had somehow managed to convince themselves that they couldn't. I don't know that they were typical; but most of my work was oriented toward confidence-building and helping them comprehend a culture very different from what they were used to.

Their kids (after two months) sounded as if they'd lived here all their lives.

I'm not sure the comment about Americans isn't an unfair stereotyping. At least a simple majority of the Americans I've known have taken the trouble to learn at least some key phrases in at least one language other than English. That's admittedly not the same as becoming fluent; but it does indicate that they find some value in communicating in another language. I'll stick my neck out and guess (right out loud) that most people won't have much problem with "buenas dias", "por favor", "gracias", "bonjour", "s'il vous plait", and "merci".

I think the biggest problem for most people (including Americans) is that of not wanting to speak a language /badly/.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

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Reply to
Morris Dovey

I was speaking of English as First Language accredited teachers which was what I thought was being advocated as the modus operandi...

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

From the "what's wrong with this picture? file": A school bus in Tucson with an anti-smoking propaganda sign --- in Spanish.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Reply to
Mark & Juanita

Hmm, should I suppose that if one does not understand the text it looks like a cigarette advertisement?

Reply to
fredfighter

I think most of are are speaking from a viewpoint of what might be best, given typical circumstances, not what are the best choices to be made among current practices.

OBVIOUSLY, you won't have teachers available who speak all of the native languages of all of the students in every school. My point is that if you are going to teach those students English, you should not EXCLUDE from consideration teachers who also speak some of those other languages.

Reply to
fredfighter

...

Well, that seems pretty obvious to me, too... :)

I interpreted your previous response as there must be a (preferably native) of whatever language there might be found no matter how few there might be in a class or how obsucure the language/dialect.

Seems we have no disagreement after all, at least on that particular point...

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

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