OT alternative wealth statistics

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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com says...

Were you just looking for an excuse to post your favorite quote? I thought I made it clear that I'd go along with it.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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You kinda missed the point there... the point being that you are, by your own admission, quite willing to countenance evil (in the form of taking wealth from those who earned it and giving it to those who did not), as long as _you_personally_ are not harmed in the process.
I find that attitude despicable.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com says...

OK, one more try. I'd be perfectly willing to adjust my income downwards (i.e. be harmed) to help out poor countries if others who have a lot more than I would do so first.
Originally you bitched because you thought I wanted to soak the rich for my own benefit. I tried to respond that such was not the case.
I don't find you despicable, just a perfect example of G.B.Shaw's axiom "Intelligence is an experiment that failed". One more stupid response and into the bozo bin you go.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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That was far from clear in your original post; all that _was_ clear was your willingness to apply the adjustment to those with more assets than yourself. In any event, it's clear now, and I apologize for impugning your motives.
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
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Why am I reminded of the story of Stalin remarking on the "constitution" of the USSR with the old Russian saying "bumaga vse terpit."
"Paper will put up with anything. "

your
yourself.
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wrote:

Not to mention recently getting caught buying 50k life insurance policy on non-essential folks, like greeters, without the listed person's knowledge.
It's illegal, and really creepy to boot!
Barry
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Keep_it_in_the_newsgroup snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

I guess it's more of an incentive to hire the older, previously retired folks. Watch out for Wall-Mart's new "Hire the HIV" program.
It never ceases to amaze me how willing some people are to publicly show how readily they have substituted raw greed for ethics and integrity.
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It is un-American to shop at WalMart isn't it?
RB
Renata wrote:

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I'm not really spiteful. It's annoying when the federal government makes a big issue of how EVERYONE is getting a tax break, but then: 1) you find out that the refunds are not proportional (weighted toward the affluent) AND 2) the resulting impact affects the lower strata folks (e.g. not the top 1%) much more disproprtionately (because the state's fees and taxes are flat not graduated, for example).
I do also disagree w/a lot of the government's spending, but there seems little that can be done quite yet. Everyone re-elects their favorite congresscritter 'cause, of course, they take care of the home towns (AKA pork). We all have our opinions on which social programs are good or not. e.g. I don't think the government has any business in sticking their nose into marriage, and then spending $1.5 billion (or proposing to) is absurd.
Rereading the stuff below, I can't believe some folks would actually not be greatly annoyed by some of these stats. Where is this country going? Businesses (etc.) seem to take advantage of you any way they can - you satisified in leaning over and saying, "more, more, more"?
Renata
wrote:

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Well, DUH! The burden of *paying* taxes is not proportional *either*, falling much more heavily on the rich than on the poor. Why are you upset that the people who pay the most in taxes will receive the greatest benefit from a tax cut? This should not come as a surprise to any thinking individual.

It's not the Federal government's fault that the tax laws in your state do not conform to your ideas of what's fair or not. Take that up with your state legislature if you don't like it.
-- Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
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This is another one that's hard to figure out, because it depends on who's numbers you look at, and how they choose to slant it (sort of like counting millionaires :-)
Prior to the most recent tax cut, federal income taxes (in terms of actual tax paid, not the marginal rate) were, for the middle 20% of the population, at their lowest since 1957. This was not true for the highest income 20%, in other words the top 20% was paying proportionally more tax than the middle 20%. So it would not be totally unreasonable if the top 20% were to be brought back to the proportion previously in effect (I don't know if this will, in fact, happen; it probably depends on the proportion of ordinary income versus capital gains the top 20% incur).
One set of numbers supporting the above is here(*):
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/overview/..%5Ctables%5 Coverview%5CDistribution%5CPDF%5CEffective_Tax_Rate.pdf
(sorry about the wrap). Note that the middle quintile's individual rate for 2001 of 4.8% is the lowest for any year, while the top 20%'s rate of 15.8% for 2001 was higher than that for 1983 (14.1%).
Note that in comparisions like the one described above, the bottom 20% tend not to be included. As far as I can tell, this is because the bottom 20% of the population pay essentially no federal income tax, which makes the statistics much more boring than those for the middle & uppermost 20%.
(refering again to the above site, the lowest 20% had an effective tax rate of -5.3% in 2001)
(you can see where the income quintiles break here:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h01.html
you'd be surprised at how low the boundry between the fourth quintile & the top 20% is...)
John
(* those numbers come from the congressional budget office. I had another set from the IRS, but I can't find that link)
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Because, although factual, they appear so selectively presented as to be propoganda-like.
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I would like to throw a little different slant on this and that is the fact that corporate America is doing two things that are undermining the middle and eve lower classes and the government isn't doing anything about it: (1) out-sourcing jobs like engineering, IT, help desk, accounting, etc. and (2) abusing to the hilt the H-1B and L-1 visas saying that there is a shortage of American workers for the jobs.
Now, a previous poster said something like Wal-Mart is providing a wage and if you don't like it, don't take it. By utilizing the above scenario, companies are forcing wages DOWN and if you say you don't want it, they will find somebody to give it to by giving it to a foreigner who would gladly accept even LESS than what was previously offered.
If you don't think this is true, look again. I work in the IT field and I See it happening everyday. In fact, it is worse than you can imagine. They hire Indian outsourcing firms to come in and replace the programmers but first those same programmers must train their replacements--talk about humiliation. And I witnessed this first-hand because 38 others and myself went through it.
This is nothing other than discrimination; at least age discrimination if not some other kind. I do not think it would be lawful in this country to replace everybody in the company with other Americans because it would be considered discrimination but for some reason this is permitted.
I could rant on but I think you get the point.
As for the notion that shopping at Wal-Mart is un-American, I actually feel that is true. A few years back, they touted themselves for selling American. Now, anything that is not Chinese or on the same level is what is sold because they mandate that distributors sell to them for 2-3% less this year than last. Here is an article published in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that I totally agree with: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04018/262404.stm
I don't agree with the federal government sticking its nose into thing too much else you end up with a socialistic society but I do think it should do something to help make the American worker more attractive to the American company.
And we need to rid ourselves of the Wal-Mart mentality that the only thing that matters is low prices because we can't have it both ways: low prices and decent wages.
(Rant off.)
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I agree completely with your comments about the abuse of H-1B visas. The most telling events to me were sitting in senior management meetings at a fortune 100 company a few years ago and discussing how we were going to get labor costs down. I was disgusted to observe the same HR VP that was strategizing about ways to "retire" higher priced labor (older workers) in favor of lower priced help testifying before the US House of Representatives about the need for increased H-1B visas. The reason he gave was that there are not enough qualified workers. The honest reason would have been to complete the statement: "there aren't enough qualified workers at the salary we want to pay."
Either our elected representatives are dumber than a rock or they have a ring through their noses. My opinion is that they have joined the world's oldest profession and are selling out to any one with a PAC that will help to perpetuate their employment and position.
If the current trend continues I foresee the destruction of this country as it is reduced to the level of the third world nations were are importing.
RB
Ray Kinzler wrote:

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I fear you're right.
When I was in grade school (about a million years ago), we studied world geography and learned that countries in what is now called the Third World (then called undeveloped countries, I think) served the role of supplying raw materials to the more advanced countries (the US and the European countries) because they lacked the skills and the infrastructure to produce sophisticated products themselves. Those countries then imported finished goods from us and others.
In another generation, we're going to be in that position ourselves. Who is going to make the investment in time and money to become a machinist, an engineer, or a programmer if we're sending all of our manufacturing, engineering a programming work overseas? Why bother learning anything but how to flip burgers if that's all the jobs that are left? Skilled people will be unemployed, manufacturing plants as well as engineering offices will be shut down.
Today, we choose not to employ Americans to fill jobs that we can send overseas more cheaply. Soon, the choice will be gone. There simply won't be any Americans left with these skills. Like those undeveloped countries of my grade-school days, we will lack the skills and the infrastructure to produce sophisticated products ourselves and will be dependent on importing finished goods from elsewhere. Assuming, of course, that we burger-flippers can afford them at all.
-- jc Published e-mail address is strictly for spam collection. If e-mailing me, please use jc631 at optonline dot net
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John Carlson wrote:

Nobody will be able to afford to buy the burgers either, so we'll all just be unemployed and living on welfare, paid for by... Hrm....
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
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snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net says...

Philosophically I agree with keeping the government out, but in the real world it doesn't work. Without rules, and someone to enforce them, those with good intelligence and bad ethics will wind up with everything.
Now how to make sure the government makes and enforces the right rules, that's a problem :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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Aw gee, why did you go and have to do that? Just look at all the wasted keystrokes ...
Renata wrote:

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