Old discussion Re: Making Windows/Doors

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Some months ago there was a discussion regarding above and a link to a video where the provider showed a very inefficient manner of doing so as well as being, in my opinion, much less safe than the alternate I suggested. The particular point in contention was the coping of the end for muntins and the order in which operations were done, the video treating every piece individually whereas I commented on cutting to length a block of material, coping, _then_ ripping to width and sticking...
At the time I mentioned that Delta/Rockwell in the ages of their heyday had published a very nice technical document on same but that unfortunately over the years my copy had gotten so worn it wasn't legible when copied. While looking for something else, I just happened to have stumbled over the tract at OWWM in its entirety in PDF form so thought I'd share the link. The particular operations are described therein as the following --

<http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?idE59 Hopefully somebody here or in the future will find this instructive.
With the demise of shop instruction of any depth in HS, finding these kinds of detailed "how-to's" for the practical operations is increasingly difficult and consequently most self-taught individuals either have to reinvent the wheel and stumble upon the proper sequence and specific operations or, like the poster of the video referred to, use far inferior techniques not knowing any better.
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On 2/18/2016 2:48 PM, dpb wrote:

That bit of treasured information pre-dates the "Information age", which history will likely, and more appropriately rename the "Opinion Age".
Saw that once before a few years back, failed to bookmark it, but captured it this time for good.
Thanks for posting the link!
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Good find! Info like that is gold, and is never to be found when you need it.
Thanks for posting it.
Robert
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On 02/18/2016 6:18 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I have the printed copy that was with the little shaper when I bought it back in the '70s, but when I tried to copy it after the above discussion it wasn't legible enough to post.
As said, I happened on this searching for a parts list/drawing for the old Rockwell-Delta larger shaper I acquired just a few years ago as was preparing to do more work with it than had since got it (some windows by chance) and was cleaning it up in preparation as it's just been sitting out there in the barn...didn't figure out how the center cutout plate was held in as needed to use larger diameter cutter and didn't want to risk doing something might regret trying too hard...
Did find what needed but saw the above on the way during the search and it is, as you say, virtually unknown these days. It is, of course, practical for today as CMT and one or two others have introduced the sash cutter sets with the coping cutter that otherwise have become only very expensive commercial shaper cutters since Delta quit making their set for the 1/2" stub spindle.
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On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 2:48:37 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

Upon further thought, I have to say it is damn impressive how much informat ion was in that 8 page pdf. Not only instructive with pictures, but with p ictures of profiles. And in the case of some of their illustrations, they even show the cutter, its profile and a reference number while in use.
In today's world, that could have gone two ways. First, a poorly scribbled and mostly incorrect internet only piece. Or second, a Fine Woodworking H eritage Series book with all color illustrations and glossy pages with the same amount of info, but $35.
Note the revision date on the document... 1952!
Robert
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On 02/19/2016 2:06 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: ...

The original was printed on glossy stock and distributed with new shapers. I don't know when that stopped; mine was in the 70's.
The S/N on the Delta-Rockwell larger shaper begins iirc with 33 which from the OWWM list is supposed to date to '45 -- that's certainly in the ballpark. There is no specific model on the machine itself but looks and the details of table, etc., that were modified a couple of times are identical to the 1340 described here--which document is what was looking for when found the above PM tech note...
<http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id 74>
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On 2/19/2016 10:00 AM, dpb wrote:

I have an entire set of Delta mags that came with my tools:
http://jbstein.com/Flick/P1050779.jpg
Looking at the Shaper mag, which has all the shaping operations, and a really nice section on sticking, it was copywrite 1936, and mine is the 7th edition 9-43, which I assume means Sept 1943. I wonder if these things are worth anything? I probably should find out before I croak, and my kids pitch them....
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On 03/01/2016 9:38 AM, Jack wrote: ...

How kewl!!!
I think they're almost priceless, but what actual value one could place on them I've no idea.
I don't know if the OWWM has a hardcopy archive facility or not or whether there's a local w-working club or the like that might have decent longevity where you are if the kids aren't interested.
If nothing else, if could check at the OWWM documentation site and see which, if any, aren't yet in their collection, that would be _a_good_thing_ (tm).
One could, of course, always go the "throw 'em up on eBay and see what they bring" ploy if just a few shekels were the goal and presume if somebody cares enough to buy they'll hang on to them, too...
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Or do both. Scan and post to OWWM so that everyone interested (I am thinking a pretty small group) could see them. The folks that "got it" would without doubt be appreciative.
Then see what the market would bear to sell them.
It would be interesting to see if those documents are worth anything.
Robert
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On 3/1/2016 4:13 PM, dpb wrote:

I doubt I'd sell them, unless they were worth a LOT of cash, which I doubt. My main interest is to tell my kids their value, along with all my other tools. My son sort of knows, and claims he wants all my stuff so I can't sell anything. Scanning them would take a lot of effort, so not likely I'd do that on a whim someone might make use of them.
The neat thing about them is not the info so much, that's available all over the place if you look. What really neat is the pictures and drawings of the cabinet makers, and their garb. I wonder if they really wore ties in the shop? I sort of doubt it, but coats and ties were worn in a lot of places that seem really strange today.
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Jack
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On 03/02/2016 9:44 AM, Jack wrote: ...

I'm not aware of many (if any) place that has the depth of detail on "how to do stuff" with many of the techniques any longer. There are a zillion u-tube videos and so on, granted, but most of them I've seen referenced are amateurish or simply wrong -- then again, it's not an area I frequent so there are probably some good ones out there but the chances of finding them are pretty slim it seems.
There are some specific published books; but I don't believe even the Taunton FWW series includes the level of information on sash and doors the shaper chapter does...
Agree it would be lots of effort to actually scan 'em; was the thought I had regarding if there were a physical archive somewhere that had the resources to do it would be good. If one or more of the kids does want 'em, that's probably best can be done.
I'm certain the pictures for them were posed but certainly dress code has changed. A tie in a production shop was pretty much a no-no way back for the hazard even then, though. Altho they are wearing full aprons to keep it in some check, at least.
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1900's http://lolalelystudio.com/2012/08/02/thursdays-child-has-far-to-go/
Most of the family picts show men and boys wearing ties, but not too many workers as they wore overalls, seems that milkmen and mailmen wore ties in the 40's.
As to the personal value of what you have? I would consider it very high. Someone somewhere would be looking for that, and for various reasons as well.
But you are correct in that it is a extreme amount of work to scan them.
However, setting up a camera, lighting until you get a clear high definition picture slightly larger than the page just might be the ticket.
Maybe goggle might be interested in doing it in pdf format as part of their book archiving they have going on, I know they can do it without ripping the books apart, and they should be able to return them, or come to your place an scan them. You might email the archiving project to see.
I don't blame you whichever way you go, but they are indeed very valuable for info sake.
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On 2/18/2016 2:48 PM, dpb wrote:

I do not recall the previous discussion but....
I did the same on a small scale sort'a. The theory is the same. Cut the ends, and in my case the middles, and then rip. Not only is it more efficient it also cuts down on tear out when the ends are cut before ripping.
I did this in about November of 2009.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4287393275/in/album-72157622991960362/
A stack of 8. If you look closely you see the details. While all joints appear to be butt joints, they are all actually half lap joints. The half laps are approximately 3/32" deep, the wood is 3/16" thick.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4287393275/in/album-72157622991960362/
And all of those pieces after cutting the end half lap tenons and mid dado's. There are 4 completely different beginning "billets"?, prior to ripping :~) I recall after ripping I had 56 pieces in 4 different shapes. It was like a jigsaw puzzle getting them to fit together. Thank goodness I had a Sketchup drawing to show me which pieces went where. As it was, I only had to cut 24 dado's/rabbets. Had I cut those after ripping to final width that would have been 196 to cut.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4288134856/in/album-72157622991960362/
These ended up on the head board and foot boards of our bed. The tower night stands had these too but they were all butt joints on those. I was waiting on a special tool, ;~), to help me cut the dados and rabbets for the half lapped units. The special tool being the Bridge City "Kerfmaker" jig.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4435911881/in/album-72157622991960362/
Up close on the head board.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/24832748510/in/dateposted-public/
So YES cut those ends before ripping!
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On 2/19/2016 8:32 AM, Leon wrote:

OOPS! Here is the stack of 8
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/4287396695/in/album-72157622991960362/
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On 02/19/2016 8:32 AM, Leon wrote: ...

Ayup. Most anybody who's done as much work as you will have figured it out; it's that there are so many now who've never had the level of experience that are teaching via u-tube or whatever without having done so themselves.
So, when there's such a good exposition, make it available even though this is a limited audience there are some who'll find it.
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On 2/19/2016 10:16 AM, dpb wrote:

There are 1 or 2 on Youtube that I will give a any consideration. Others are simply documenting their learning experience, the right or wrong way.
Charles Neil is one of them, Matthias Wandel on a some times basis.

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On 2/19/2016 11:04 AM, Leon wrote:

fify ...
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On 02/19/2016 11:04 AM, Leon wrote: ...

I never have looked; don't use it so don't really know and not familiar with either name.
I'd have not seen the other had not somebody posted about it here.
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On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 2:48:37 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

*I've been away for a while, so I'm just catching up on some of these threa ds.
I thought I had seen this before, but if I may (somewhat erroneously) corre ct you, that PDF is not the whole publication. Seems the whole original b ook/publication was in 1939 and subsequently reprinted in various years, af terwards.
Some years ago I inherited a WW shop, with several books/publications, and the 1954 edition has the whole of the publication containing the Sash/Doors chapter(s). The whole book is 108 pages, titled "Getting The Most Out Of Your Shaper". *The inherited cache includes two other similar books "Gett ing The Most Out Of Your *Lathe and *Router", also. There is a notation i n the front of each book that informs there are other books for the drill p ress, circular saw, jointer, band saw, scroll saw, abrasive tools, & RAS... and other publications, like, one-day projects, things to make, outdoor pr ojects, etc. These publications are noted as being among the "Deltacraft L ibrary".... *if the library still exists!
In the Shaper book, there are 250 illustrations, charts, etc., much of whic h folks are familiar with. i.e., basic info showing the parts of the shaper , adjustments/workings/setting of those parts, use instructions, etc. I s uppose your PDF reference is the meat of the sash & door construction, but maybe someone would like (like to see) the whole book, also.
I don't know how to create a PDF file, but my nephew probably does. I'll t ry to get that done and offer it to the OWWM site.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/25030695782/in/photostream https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/24853225660/in/photostream/
Sonny
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On 02/20/2016 9:01 AM, Sonny wrote:

It is the full reprint of what it is; it isn't the full shaper book, no, granted (but I didn't say that is what it was, either, just for the record... :) ).
This small reprint is, as said, what was distributed with new shapers by Delta up until the mid-80s or so, I don't know when they quit for sure, as said I got the original in the small guy I bought in mid-70s.

There's a not very good copy at OWWM now at
<http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id 60> I suppose I shoulda'/coulda' put the above link in the original posting as well but the reprint is handy in being exclusively sash and window and being as I was getting ready to begin on the barn windows those were on my mind plus as noted having been the subject of the earlier thread...

It would be a great service indeed to have a better copy than that presently available.
Unless Delta has changed for the better and with the now completely foreign ownership all I've seen is even worse than with Porter-Cable, the publications are no longer even available to them internally; I spoke with an engineer about the time of the P-C acquisition looking for a fresh reprint of my copy of the above and he'd never even heard of them and had been w/ Delta over 10 years. Couldn't find the part number even in the microfiche listings he said, not just that it wasn't in the online database.
I think the originals are lost forever, unfortunately.
PS. Oh, on "how to create a PDF file", if you don't have Adobe, one of the easiest ways is with a printer emulator...I use "CutePDF Writer" at <http://www.cutepdf.com/products/CutePDF/writer.asp . With it, you simply print the scanned doc and direct it to the virtual printer and end up with the PDF file. Nothin' to it...there are other solutions as well, this one is simple and "just works" with no nagware, time limits, etc., etc., etc., ... And, no connection other than just use it.
If you were to take the time to scan it, you can then just upload to OWWM; the only bad thing of their archives is that there isn't much oversight; there are duplicates of quite a few things and while it's great somebody put at least what they did of the Shaper Book up, it would be better to have a clean copy and then the current one relegated to archives and that be the one that would be found. But, they don't have the level of support to be able to do such.
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