NYW Shop Clock..why oh why

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news:rLRHf.14645>

I'd have to check which ones but I recall projects finished with Danish oil only.
Cheers! Duke
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While Norm is frequently used for target practice with most "almost professionals", I am wondering since he is a paid employee of Morash if he has a choice. Especially since he has said more than once that he makes almost always make three of each piece; one to sell, one for the show, and one for sale/show/Morash.
I guess the other thought would be... gawd forbid... maybe in his own simple, pedestrian way, he likes it. I guess many here would stop watching if they found out poor Norm actually had different tastes than the "experts".
I watch eagerly for each of your shows to show how to finish "correctly".
Robert
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Grow up.

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I know Norm bashing is popular but in his defence staining is often necessary in the real world. Customers often have expectations that must be met. They may expect their new cherry table to look like 100 year old cherry that they see in antique furnitue and don't want to wait for it to darken. If you want to make the sale you do what you have to to try to give that look. If you are doing a one off showpiece you can spend three years looking for a piece of wood with that perfect figure. If you are making kitchen cabinets for moderate prices you may have to "enhance" the appearance a little. Stains, glazes and even topcoats change and enhance the appearance of wood. Oils, shellac and even varnishes add color to the appearance. Ironically some of the much ridiculed polyurethanes probably are the clearest, read least colormodifying, coatings. You may be lucky and able to enjoy the natural looks of woods. but even recreational woodworkers have customers to deal with, specifically SWMBO, so learning the technique probably isn't a bad idea. Now I won't defend Norms skills as a finisher. If you want to be really good at it get a good book like Bob Flexner's and spend your couch time productively.
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Not by cabinetmakers working at Norm's level, with timber of that quality.
There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it.
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wrote:

I have made that point before.
Somebody got all upset wih me and said that Norm was just being "historically accurate".
Which I thought was just stupid. Why take beautiful wood and cover it up? If that is some kinda tradition, we don't need it. Wood has its own unique beauty and it is a crime to cover it up. (Think we can get that legislation passed?)
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Say what? Man, if someone wants to use stain, more power to them. Who are you, or I to say what looks best? To you a clear finish looks good. To Norm, and many many others, stain is a look they like. Why not just let them do as they like?
scott
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Scott Lurndal wrote:

I agree. I tend to not like natural finish wood. I usually like a darker and more robust finish. Then again I kinda like chubby chicks, so who the hell is going to listen to me anyway??
Joe Barta
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Hey Joe, did you say something?
Gary
;-)
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Andy Dingley wrote:
<<There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it. >>
Holy crap I wish I was that proud of my opinion. I am thinking now of all the ignorant clients I have had over the years... they didn't know that they shouldn't have their cabinets, built-ins, and decorative moldings painted or stained.
It is always reassuring to me to see the level of acceptance of the ideas of others in this group. Outstanding. I always thought that you could do what you wanted with your own personal projects, but not too sure now. And now to find out my well heeled clients are "ignorant"; it may be more than I can handle. After all I do what they want, that is what they pay me to do. Some folks here may be sorely surprised at the masses of the great unwashed, the unknowing, that actually prefer stain and paint.
My own personal taste is a natural oil for most pieces, maybe with an occasional tint to highlight some grain patterns. However, if Norm or anyone else want to piss on their projects for finish, I am fine with that. He could stain it brown with whatever he thought was fine, and as long as he could contain the smell (I do have >some< limits). It's his project. He built it. I personally wouldn't give a moment of thought to asking someone else what they preferred on my projects. If I built it, that sombitch is mine. Period.
Time to get the brad/glue bitch going again. Or maybe the one where he is a puppet for his coporate masters to shill machinery.
Robert
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wrote:

Quite a few years ago I was going through a book on old Georgian colonial homes. It had many full page photos of amazing interior woodworking... to me, it was some of the most beautiful stuff in the world.
I remember distinctly seeing a caption below one of the pictures noting that while the wood paneling and various woodworking were currently a natural type finish, when the home was built it would have been common for the woodwork to have been painted, and in fact this interior had been stripped of paint at some point. I thought... paint?
As I thought about it further, even though it seemed odd *to me*, I suppose the rooms would look damn fine painted.
I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and beauty is often what the beholder thinks beauty is *supposed* to be.
Joe Barta
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Joe Barta said:

Much fine woodworking is indeed painted, but I still cringe to think of buying that $7 bf walnut and painting or staining / glazing it. That's what poplar is for... :-o
Temporal perceptions have altered the general public consensus on what "looks good" in this decade. As the commonplace and mundane woods of yesteryear faded to synthetics, gypsum and latex, we now find ourselves celebrating natural woods once again. I suppose in times past, being surrounded by unfinished wooden bowls, spoons, tables, chairs, and well... everything, paint was considered quite upscale.
The changing fortunes of time continue to wreak havoc on expectations. Now that wood isn't so common, we yearn for what was once concealed.
FWIW,
Greg G.
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Greg G. wrote:
<<Temporal perceptions have altered the general public consensus on what "looks good" in this decade. As the commonplace and mundane woods of yesteryear faded to synthetics, gypsum and latex, we now find ourselves celebrating natural woods once again. I suppose in times past, being surrounded by unfinished wooden bowls, spoons, tables, chairs, and well... everything, paint was considered quite upscale.
The changing fortunes of time continue to wreak havoc on expectations. Now that wood isn't so common, we yearn for what was once concealed. >>
How very true is that? I work on a lot of houses (the one I looked at yesterday was built in 1927; appraised value 1.1 million) and most of the older homes had painted wood of a quality we will never see again. This had all Douglas fir pediments, keyed trim around the windows with all wood frames with sills and skirts. All with no knots, rough spots, or curly grain. This also applied to the shoe mold, the 6" crown molding (not sure of the wood, though) and the door casings with transoms.
All was gleefully painted. With many coats, too. When I am in the attic of an older house, it is not uncommon for me to see rafters in the 18 - 20' range in pine that have no knots at all for the entire length. It was only framing lumber for the builder, but for us it would be treasure.
For me, as stated, I like finishes that let the wood come through. That's been the norm for many and certainly the hobby guys for many years now. But 30 years ago when I started out, we stained everything. I mean everything. The style was darker woods, like the old dark libraries and studies, and the dark walled game rooms. We stained trim, paneling, cabinets, doors, etc. I mean everything. We stained walnut to a darker walnut. We stained cherry to a cherry red, not mild pink.
In later years, we painted over a lot of the clear lacquer finishes on kitchen cabinets and built ins as the French Country style of deorating took hold. Everything had to be painted out white. Everything. I must admit, it was a huge improvement for some of the kitchens we reworked.
But those weren't my projects, so I just did what the client wanted. What someone chooses for a finish wasn't any of my business then, and don't think it is now. Sure, I'll agree that it is hard to watch Norm slather on some of those finishes, but hey... it's his project.
I just took offense to an earlier post that pronounced that people that finish wood contrary to their authorotative, magificent opinon were simply ignorant. Just about two shades of dark walnut too arrogant for me.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I remember someone noticed and pointed out that Norm stains everything... I don't remember anyone being "arrogant".
I saw someone say they thought his choice looked like crap. That's an opinion, but I don't think it is "arrogant", as it doesn't lead one to think he's assuming to himself or making any claims of any degree of importance by wagering it.
There's no sense in arguing about taste. (how's that go? De Gustibus non disputandum est, or something...)
But maybe I'm looking at a different post than you.
er
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Enoch Root wrote:

This was the statement made...
"There are good reasons for staining. Nearly all are a combination of either cheap timber or ignorant clients. If you're not constrained in this way then there's no excuse for doing it as Norm does - taking perfectly fine timber and ruining it."
Maybe straddling the border between opinion and arrogance.
Then again, we're talking about arrogance like it's a bad thing ;-)
Joe Barta
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Joe Barta wrote:

Okay, I was looking (upthread) at a different (similar) statement--one not as strongly worded.
I still think it's a strong opinion, not arrogance. I have no qualms with strong opinions if someone can back them up. Mind you, matters of taste seem like the most pointless topic in which to do this...
er
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Joe Barta wrote:

I remember reading something about wealthy people having painted woodwork, while common trim was natural. Some of the painted built up trim was cherry or mahogany! <G>
Apparently paint was very expensive at one time and only the wealthy could afford it.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com said:
<snip>

While I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of your altruistic defense, you must admit that, although the first clock intro'd looked pretty good, the one he built and "stained" while filming the episode was one butt-ugly sumbitch. Looked as though it was drug through... well... something brown and lumpy. :-o I was truly aghast, and I've developed an acute tolerance for the stain and glaze mentality. Perhaps it was an interrupted bitstream in the HDTV broadcast, but the sight of this high resolution atrocity was nearly nauseating. ;-)

But he's a really affable shill... ;-) As with most who find themselves in the public spotlight, I'm sure a certain amount of criticism is to be expected.
FWIW,
Greg G.
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