Norm's mahagany finish

Page 2 of 4  
LRod wrote:

I take it that you don't subscribe to "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" or "alt.binaries.pictures.furniture". If I had to choose a piece of furniture made by either Norm or Mike it would be Mr. Hide's for sure.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I do not.

It's all a matter of personal preference. The computer desk is not my cup of tea. I wouldn't own it. But that has nothing to do with whether the workmanship is acceptable or the choice of finish. However, saying it's a piece of crap and not a good example of woodworking for the world to see just because it isn't my taste would be wrong.
I didn't see anything in either the joinery or the finish that would tip the balance.
And I still haven't found out what this mystical wreck approved finish is. I see he used lacquer on the wall. That's not often a practical choice for a variety of reasons. I hope that's not it.
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ok now I have added a couple of pieces I french polished ,just to prove I have not always been enamored with laquer.
In my opinion french polish is unsurpassed as far as a finish is concerned, however it is fragile and temperamental because the application technique takes time and patience to perfect. Laquer is a far more forgiving and thus is a preferred finish because of its capability to absorb abuse, it seals the wood effectively and provides excellent protection to it.
The trick is to find a way to make a laquer finish to look for all intents and purposes like a french polish finish

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Still and all, and the entire point of my displeasure with the railing against Norm's choice of finishes, it's all a matter of what YOU like to do, are comfortable doing, and have the means to do. It's also a matter of personal taste as well as, as you mentioned, functionality.
No one finish can possibly meet all of those requirements. Some may be more desirable than others, some may even have more of a cachet than others, but at the end of the day each choice of finish is a legitimate choice from the standpoint of the craftsman. Anyone else's opinion doesn't mean spit and it isn't a measure of the worth of the craftsman.
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Well I must admit I agree with you. If the craftsman wishes and likes an inferior finish thats up to the individual. apparently Norms choice of finishes was that a mahogany stain was too red so he used a walnut stain .I wonder which of the hundreds of mahogany stains he was referring to.Of course you and I realize a stain is not a finish, just a colorant anyway. And I agree with you no one finish can possibly meet all reqirements ,however laquer meets most ,can you suggest one that does meet those requirements better ? I have not found it, perhaps you can enlighten me .
As I said earlier however well a piece is designed or built if the finish is crap so is the piece ....mjh

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What finish do you use on carved chairs?
Ken Muldrew snipped-for-privacy@ucalgazry.ca (remove all letters after y in the alphabet)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ucalgazry.ca (Ken Muldrew) wrote:

Serious question, Mike. Do you spray lacquer on carved pieces? Do you rub it out? What did you use before you had spray gear?
Ken Muldrew snipped-for-privacy@ucalgazry.ca (remove all letters after y in the alphabet)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ken ,When I started out I was renting in a city environment and working out of a basement ,spray equipment was out of the question ,so I learned to French polish. French polishing is fine for chairs and any thing that the surface is not subject to any chemicals such as water alcohol etc .
The dining table that I added to the my web site was French polished at the customers insistence [even though I recommended against it ] it looked beautiful . The table surface was ruined several years later when her husband passed away and the table was set up for a wake by her friends and neighbors .
Over the years I have evolved a procedure ,and a procedure is the trick , something you do time and time again and it guarantees a satisfactory result practically every time .
Initially I used alaline and other water stains because they were the best unpigmented stains and when French polished they stayed put. however they are a pain to use because they raise the grain .To avoid this I would "water " the surface at least three times with a glue size let it dry and resand before staining the piece, very time consuming. So to reduce the workload I started using the alcohol and laquer analine stains ,essentially they are non grain raising . The problem I found with these when French polished they amalgamated with the polish and became blotchy . when shot with laquer products they would migrate as the laquer and alcohol were natural solvents for the stains . I went through a bunch of stains and finally can across stains by Mohawk [behlen] called "ultra"stains which did not bleed had a long "open" time and were unpigmented.I have used them ever since . I have recently used some pigmented MLCampbell stains on some walnut which I found lightened the walnut, it was by accident and I have yet to understand why this stain does lighten walnut.
So I now base stain with ultra stains [my favorite being brown mahogany]. In addition to the basic stain colors the mahoganies and walnuts I also have green red and black . these allow my to warm the stain [adding red] ,harden it [add green, kills red], or darken it [add black] I forgot lighten any stain [add reducer].
So I stain to get the color as I want it then I shoot it with sealer to trap the color in .after that I shoot again several times rubbing down lightly between coats,after that two or three at most coats of laquer [all MLCampbell products] before the final coat goes on I usually cover the whole thing with a coat of asphaltum ,a rich dark brown stain thinned with mineral spirits . while still wet as much as possible is wiped off with a rag so all that is left is in the cracks and crevices and will give life to the finish and any carved detail, leave this to dry overnight then apply the final coat of laquer .
I always use gloss laquer ,so the piece will end up looking rather "bright" so I take a 0000 steel wool pad soaked in water and "woolwax" [behlem product] and rub the whole thing down to a eggshell finish. To me it looks pretty good. that's my finishing procedure mjh

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

They laid the guy out on the table?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
No, this was a traditional reception after the funeral. The friends put hot chafing dishes and hot plates on the table without place mats and the like ....mjh
wrote in message news:R9c%b.59539>

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
[great stuff on finishing wood that isn't necessarily flat]
Thanks for that. I always thought that French polish wouldn't work well on carved surfaces because it would be hard to avoid stopping in places. The one carved chair I have made I brushed on shellac and rubbed it out with a 3M grey pad + rottenstone. I wasn't really happy with the finish (nor with the carving) but less discriminating folks seem to like the chair (good design, probably).
BTW, I took your advice from last year and purchased "Fine Furniture for the Amateur Cabinetmaker" by Andy Marlow. I've just about finished with the practice projects. It's a great book and a very enjoyable way to work wood. Thanks for the recommendation.
Ken Muldrew snipped-for-privacy@ucalgazry.ca (remove all letters after y in the alphabet)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
My pleasure ,I think that little book is great for all levels of woodworking, in my opinion it certainly contributes to the craft more than most these days do, and you cannot beat the price .
As far as french polishing chairs it is not the easiest thing to do especially from scratch .my procedure is to sand the crap out of them first then stain using a NGR stain then polish pad the polish in . make the pad cone shaped and use the nose to get into the tight spots .You will need a pretty damp almost wet rubber to get into any carved detail and you will also need to punch it into the carved detail pretty forcefully . give the polish time to dry before hitting the area again when yo get into a corner use a circular motion never stopping in one spot ,the addition of a small drop of lindseed oil will help also to lube he rubber, but use it sparingly if not you will end up with smears in the finish . To et rid of these smears essentially you will need to pad them out with straight alcohol. Always remember practice makes perfect and very few of us are there yet, but the rewards are worth striving for....regards mjh

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Nice looking wall work. Thanks for the link.
Does this mean that lacquer is the only acceptable finish for us to be pursuing?
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

How odd that you show paneling in an interior to demonstrate that you are vastly superior because you are more than "just a carpenter." Paneling as well as built ins are typically done by carpenters.
It includes several unusual design elements like the odd space next to the desk, the narrow panel next to the windows, the narrow mitered casings in the context of the room, use of a chair rail and use of baseboard rather than use of the lowest rail.
Many people who are just carpenters would consider those errors.
As for the finish, I personally don't care for undarkened plain sawn oak. With the excessive detail and raised panels (another unusual choice) it is loud to say the least.
I'm surprised the room didn't have a coffered ceiling.
The computer desk has some odd design choices as well particularly the miter to divide it where strength is needed and the joint is obvious, but what I'm curious about is what you are? You refer to Nahm as "just a carpenter" and I'm curious what one becomes when being a carpenter is transcended?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, I can assure you it is not justified, your description not mine .
And for information these are not typical built ins as done by carpenters ,that's why I was asked to do the job . Again I am sure if a carpenter could have done the job there were plenty on site including trim carpenters that the superintendent ,architect or even the customer could have selected .

Regarding the area next to the door the architect specified the cased door opening even the double doors. My initial design was a single door opening to the side of the bookcase. In addition the Carpenters had screwed up the wall in this room to accommodate equipment in the room behind it.the actual door frame area was bumped out nearly 9 inches from the wall plane.
Each double door is 13" wide and is designed to fit inside the door casing so that when open they look like a continuation of the regular room wall paneling .Both doors have to be open as there is not sufficient access to get into the room . Normally with a double door entrance one door can remain closed and there is still sufficient room to provide access.
I designed it but had to incorporate these stipulations by the architect and the customer.
So to answer you question that is the reason for the small recessed panel between the bookcase and the cased doorway.It does have its points I suppose as there are more exposed outside corners in the moldings which always gives more interest .
As far as the narrow panel next to the windows, those areas were left by the carpenters when they framed the windows. Perhaps you would have had them run the windows all the way into the adjacent walls, in my view that would have been a disaster.
As far as what you call a "built in" that is actually a fitted breakfront . Under the left hand bookcase are two lateral file cabinets .under the right hand bookcase are provisions for a printer, fax machine,scanner, paper et al.
All the doors as can be seen mirror the paneling under the chair rail area of the room . The chair rail area above the knee hole flips down and pulls out housing a keyboard and an area for a mouse pad, of course the center section houses the computer monitor behind rollback doors using a mechanism of my own design [featured long before the commercial ones of today, grass hinges on drawerslides] .

Of course they would particularly if they were uninformed
As for the finish, I personally don't care for undarkened plain sawn

Well believe it or not it is stained, and giving the customer several options that is what HE liked and lets face it that is what matters. Just as Norm decided to put a walnut stain on a perfectly good piece of mahogany, which poses the question to the likes of me or perhaps Ed ,why not in that case use poplar, or some other inexpensive wood rather than something that can be made beautiful. Presumably from all accounts Norm decided that mahogany was too red [I did not see the show personally] that was his reasoning for using a walnut stain. I my opinion that shows ignorance of the basics of finishing . Again inasmuch that the finishing can make or break a piece of furniture the people who run the show should get Norm off the screen and get a qualified finisher like Jewitt on the program for a whole series to teach the ins and outs of finishing
It seems to me this would be an excellent idea [even if it comes from me ] given the numerous posts on this group concerning finishing problems .
As far as the raised panels and the details, believe it or not some folks have liked their rooms done like that for the last 400 years
I'm surprised the room didn't have a coffered ceiling.
the ceiling was a disaster. There was an added room above this room so the ceiling joists were doubled up and additional supports added .No attempt was made to make sure the ceiling was level or even the lower surface of the scarfed in joists were coplanar. In the left hand corner above the "built in" the ceiling dropped 2" in just over a foot. furthermore the normal pitfalls were still there ,no corners plumb no corners square no walls flat etc.

Sorry I have no idea what you are referring to, however I can assure you there is plenty of strength desi gned into the desk.

What am I, just a guy trying to make a living and doing what I like to do best. What does one become when one transcends being a carpenter ? I have no idea, but I would as You obviously believe they are already Gods, where is there to go?
mjh
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mike Hide wrote:

Chair making was demonstrated by an expert. Many specialized jigs and hand carving of the seta. Norm did the same including using the hand tools
to carve the seat. Next week a return to the chair makers shop is promised to see the expert on finishing. Sounds like just what you want. John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Makes you wonder, doesn't it? And these folks are by and large _not_ of the generation raised on TV.
Of course, hero worship and hero envy are old beyond history.
Roy makes up a lot off-screen too....

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
LRod wrote:

My point it that most of Norm's project are complete quickly, much faster than the new guy starting out. He makes it looks so easy that people have expectations that they will be able to do the same if they have a Wood-O-Matic, just like Norm. I would think you'd be clever enough to have noticed that.
--
Ed
snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Okay, Mr. TV Producer, how exactly would you produce the show? Remember, you only have 24 minutes (less, if it's not on PBS) to get your episode in.
How much time do you want to devote to repairing gaffs?
In the wine cabinet episode, he cut 100 pieces for the rack; how many of those cuts should have been shown so as to avoid anyone getting the impression that it ain't as easy as it looks?
Should we see all the dadoes being cut so that no one thinks this project is cake?
Duuhhh, I only saw him plane one board...duuhhh, does that mean I don't have to plane the others? Yuck, yuck, yuck.
How about ALL of the brads? Include them?
Clearly there's much more sanding that needs to be done than is regularly shown. We can't have people thinking that not much sanding is needed; perhaps we can show more of that.
Some of the "experts" here already rag on the program for not demonstrating the filling of brad holes; maybe we better get 20 or 30 seconds of that in there. Shoot, we have allegedly smart people right here on the wreck that think that since they didn't show that he must have slathered the inappropriate finish right over those gaping crevasses.
We only have 24 minutes available, if we include all of that, what do we leave out?
Come on, you must have a better idea of how we can best serve the great unwashed. Tell us the wreck approved method of taking 16+ hours of work and compressing it into 24 minutes of TV woodworking show production without making it look too easy.
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
LRod wrote:

Maybe an entire show. You really could devote a lot of time showing how to recover from errors.

Cutting 100? That is easy once you have the setup done. I've often made two or three items at a time because it is so easy one you've determined the dimension and set the tools. Making triplicates does not take three times as long as making one and then Ih ave a couple of gifts.

Maybe nothing. If the project is big enough, take two shows to do it.
>

What is the intention of the show aside from making money? Educate? Demonstrate? How about a show devoted to different woods and different finishes? Maybe that would be of interest, but then they could not sell a measured drawing. How about a show devoted to tools (both hand and powered) and what they can do? That would make his sponsors happy and the Viewers would know how to properly use a plane, brad nailer and biscuit joiner. (yes, I have all three).
There are all sorts of viewers every week, some brand new, some seasoned fans, all looking for new ideas or education. So why not mix it up a little? Why do I watch? To see just how he does certain things. While a particular project may not appeal to me, I may learn a better way to do a dado, rout a groove, or mount some hardware that can be applied to a competely different project.
One thing I would do though (getting back to my original post) is to use real walnut instead of putting walnut stain on mahogany. Since it was a TV tray, I'd use poly for the finish because of it durability and ease of cleaning.
--
Ed
snipped-for-privacy@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.