More Plunge Saws

Page 1 of 2  
Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita, and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be available in Europe.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44fae992-d105-457c-9235-2401e618684d.aspx
Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Oooooooo...ouch... try saying that over there...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating, cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change. When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete skepticism to shear distain.
I would bet most mfr's would tell you a saws like these, regardless of how they perform, have an immediate hurdle to get over just because they "look" different. While thats likely not the case in this NG the masses are where the profits are.
Mark
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating, cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete skepticism to shear distain.
Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but many did not like it for one reason or the other. In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws would be going after. Surely not framers in the construction industry as I doubt that these saws with their plunge mechanisms and riving knives and precise alignment adjustments would not remain in good working order when being tossed in the back of the truck. The old PC miter saw with the laser did not fair well in the field and adjustment problems were the reason that it failed. I suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit from these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the job site, but you are going to have to attract a special kind of cabinet builder.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yeah, I agree. Though the Dewalt shows the saw on a roof cutting sheathing and in a framing application. Without seeing them and reading reviews/testing it would be hard to say if one would stand up to the riggors of an average job site and maintaining accuracy while seeing abuse may be impossible. I have had the Festool in my hands many times and while I think I would treat it nicely mainly due to the cost I didnt inherantly feel like it wouldnt take some abuse. That said, I highly doubt I would take it up on a roof. I could personally find dozens, if not several dozen, uses for it on a job. I see it for what it is, a great innovation.
I personally thought the sawstop was long overdue and applauded it. I think the markets for that saw are endless from high school and trade school shop classes, to most every jobsite out there with paid employees, namely their employers comp claims, on and on. I wouldnt be surprised if one day it becomes an option on all saws.
I definately dont mean to say the US lacks innovation it just seems to me that many are too often creatures of habit and resist change. Personally I am just the opposite. I usually try to resist routine and habit in life and work. Habit and routine spawns stagnation, I always say.
Mark
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I thought the design had something to do with European style tools and space limitations. In the first case, don't they use a sliding top table saw design? They may not be used to our standard circular saw. In the second case, most woodworkers don't have a lot of shop space so a saw like this would lend itself to under mounting on a table. Anyone out there with first hand experience? Regards, Dave
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dave wrote:

From the fact that there are at least four brands of plunge saw that all use the same track, one suspects that they are a response to some kind of European standard.
--
--
--John
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In my years in the Air Force I spent 10 of them in Europe (from mid 70s to mid 90s) and hand tools are the norm. In the late 70s my German landlord was a carpenter, everything from construction to cabinets. The only power tool I ever saw him use was a drill and I know he had no stationary or bench top tools, his work shop was smaller than a one car garage. Most tradesman there and in Spain used hand held tools, some powered some not, rarely did I see any stationary tools unless you were in a manufacturing facility. I'm not sure resistance to change is a factor, I think you'd find more trades or craftsman doing things the old way in most of Europe than you would here. Also they do apprentice longer, which gives the teacher more time to indoctrinate the newbie.
One of the main things you see in Europe though are designs to get the most out of any given space and I'm sure it applies to their tools as well as furniture and cars.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Mine too and that is why I did not include German tools in the test market question. But back to my question I wonder why Europe is the market that the Japanese and US tool makers are going with first. One would think that PC and DeWalt would at least start out here. ;~(
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Leon wrote:

Price might have something to do with it...
Example:
Dewalt DW934 18v Cordless Metal Cutting Circular Saw
US price - $150
UK price - 211 or $416 USD
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You're losing me. You include Festool, but not German tools?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I meant that I was only considering the brands and plunge saws that I mentioned regardless of country origin.
I included Festool in the original opening paragraph but only mentioned Japanese and US brand tools using Europe as the guinea pig for their new products. IIRC the Festool plunge saw was in Europe before it was here in the US but the US and Japanese plunge saws are being introduced in Europe before the US.
I was wondering why the US branded and Japanese tools were not presented in the US before Europe. BDB Construction may have answered that question with the explanation that perhaps these saws would be better received in the European market over the US market.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

My MILWAUKEE jigsaw is made in Germany. Go figgur. So is my Ridgid 2610 6" sander.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
My MILWAUKEE jigsaw is made in Germany. Go figgur. So is my Ridgid 2610 6" sander.
IIRC the Milwaukee Jig saws were manufactured by AEG, a German company. Mine is also, however I wonder if the newer models are still made in Germany.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Leon and Robatoy, I just saw in interesting comment in another venue. I found a new in the box 18v Fein drill for about $140, new, in the case, with two batteries, a 15 minute charger and warranty. This was in a couple of places, not just one. Although it is a great price for the drill, Fein drills seem to be a little cheaper than their Euro counterparts.
When I asked why the drill was so cheap compared to the other Fein tool offerings, the reply was "Simple. These drills are now made in China". I don't know this guy from Adam but he claims to be an authorized Fein distributor. And he may be as full of crap as the Thanksgiving turkey. I thought Fein was Euro only.
Any thoughts? Leon? r?
Robert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That very well could be. The Chinese are as capable as any one to build quality products. It all depends on the company that is placing the order and the spec's that they require. Personally I have a Fein Multimaster but have never been inspired to purchase any of their other products. IMHO it appears that Festool, a really major player in the US these days, may be casting a large shadow on the Fein products. Perhaps the Festool "curb appeal" has a stronger influence over the potential Fein customers and Fein has had to make manufacturing changes to lower the price of their drills to gain more appeal. I really did not know that Fein sold a drill. Is it cordless?
Looking from another angle, the new local Woodcraft had a Grand Opening that was quite impressive. Manufacturer reps from Delta/Porter Cable, Steel City, Jet, Festool, Kreg, and Fein were there showing off their products and giving hands on demonstrations. They all were showing a good variety of the products that they market except for Fein. The only tool that I recall seeing demonstrated was their Multimaster. AAMOF the Kreg guy was using the Festool vacuum in his pocket hole demonstrations. The Fein rep was demonstrating the Multimaster about 30' away from the Kreg rep and Festool was on the opposite end of the store.
Soooo, the cheaper Fein drill price could be an indicator of a multitude of possibilities. Maybe China is making the cost of the Fein drill a more affordable package. Maybe the vendor is closing out the Fein drills and has cut the price to get rid of them. Rockler recently cut the price of the Metabo small Drill driver in half to $75. I believe that model is being closed out. Or perhaps they simply need to drop the price to attract buyers.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://tinyurl.com/22qyhr
They make a few models.
They seem to be pretty well reviewed in different spots, but I don't seem to be able to find anyone that actually uses one. This is a question of curiosity, I am not running out to buy one today.
***************
OK,. just off the phone with Amazon.com's live information line. Sombitch. After a lot of hemming and hawing, they confirmed that the drills are made in China. He went on further to say that most of the Fein products were these days, except the Multimaster.
I would never have suspected.
I guess that's why you can buy 2 of the Fein brand cordless drill (literally) for the price of a similar Festool drill.
If I were going to buy a Chinese tool I would go to HD and get a Ridgid (for $60 less) so I could get their warranty. I have had good luck with the Taiwanese tools, not so much so with the Chinese stuff. So for me, if I am buying a Chinese drill, I want the best warranty possible.
If I had shelled out the dough for the Fein, even if the drill was top flight, I would have really been pissed to think I had bought another Chinese tool. I could do that anywhere.
Robert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I looked at their site and only found corded although I did not dig deep.

Hummm and yet their tools are still pretty highly priced. Food for thought.

Absolutely and IMHO the Festool may be $100 or so over priced. Oddly the Festool drills come with really low amp hour rated batteries and nove are lithium yet. IIRC 1.2 amp is common. I have never actually tried one of their drills and that may be what I would have to do to understand the pricing but watching the rep demo the drill I saw no immediate bebefit over what I am using.

Absolutely
Yeah you could do better for less money.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Leon wrote:

The C12 at least is available with 1.3, 2.4, or 3.0 Ah batteries.
Some other nice touches...
It uses an electronically controlled 3-phase motor. From people that have used them, this gives way more torque at low speeds, with no brushes to change.
The power to the motor doesn't actually flow through the forward/reverse switch, unlike most regular drills. In fact the forward/reverse lever just moves a magnet that gets detected by a solid state sensor.
The drill monitors the battery and will shut down when the battery gets too low to prevent battery damage.
When using torque control the clutch will slip only up to half a revolution and then shut down automatically.
Plus all those funky attachements..
I'm trained as an engineer and this drill appeals to my sense of elegance. I'd love to get one, but I don't have $400 to drop on a cordless drill no matter how good it is.
Chris
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.