Is Plain/Flat Sawn Plywood Veneer Worth It?

[-MIKE-]

I'm building some Shaker style cabinet doors and I'll be using 1/4" plywood for the panels.

I REALLY hate the look of normal rotary cut veneer and will NOT use it. So that leaves me with quarter sawn, rift sawn, and plain/flat sawn.

I can get 1/4" CherryAA, plain, mdf core for about $70/sheet, locally. I don't know where I can find quarter or rift sawn plywood anywhere local, so I would have to have it shipped or drive however many hours to get it.

I'm not really concerned with the price. If I'll pay $70, I'll pay $100+. It's not enough sheets to worry about. Given that these will be our kitchen cabinet doors, I want them to look great.

I've seen some pictures on the internet and the flat sawn definitely looks much better than rotary cut, to me. So, in your opinions, does rift and quarter sawn veneer look *that* much better than flat sawn? Is it night and day to you? Is it worth the extra hassle and $$?

AND... does anyone have any pictures of cabinet doors or any other project on which they used flat sawn plywood?

[Steve Turner]

If money is no object, why not forgo the plywood and use solid Cherry to make your panels? That way you can sift through the available boards and choose the look you want. I agree with you about rotary cut plywood, but other than that I think Cherry looks gorgeous no matter what the cut; flat, rift, or quarter. That said, if you go with flat sawn, try to look for boards with some quilting in them; that just about makes up for what you miss when you have quarter-sawn wood with lots of ray flecks (which is DAMN gorgeous).

What color are you going to paint them? :-)

[-MIKE-]

Because plywood is so darn easy and stable. Besides, I'm using flat panels, not raised. The groove is 1/4"-6mm on my bits. Do people make solid 1/4" panels? Or do the make them thicker and rabbet out the slot in the back?

That's good to hear. I'll see if they let me... ehem!... cherry-pick through the pile.

Walnut. :-)

[John Martin]

I'd say the question, Mike, is whether or not it's worth it to you. Why would you give a rat's ass about what someone else thinks?

John Martin

[dadiOH]

Easy, yes; stable, not necessarily. If you don't believe me, come look at the cabinets I made a year or so ago for my wife's laundry room using 1/4" birch ply for the panels. The four doors on the lower cabinet are fine; the four doors (about the same size as the lowers) are warped beyond belief...one corner on each is standing out 1-2"!! And yes, they were flat originally. One of these days - when I can conquer my urge to just destroy them - I'll make new ones. And I won't be using 1/4" ply (or *any* ply) for the panels.

[Leon]

If you have seen my comments and pictures on my "towers" bedroom project you will have seen 1/4 sawn oak plywood panels.

Something to watch out for,

All of the quarter sawn plywood that I have seen and purchased is made up of book matched slices. Some times there are 8, some times there are 12 slices to cover a sheet of plywood. This can look strange if you are using more than one sheet and you want everything to look symetrical. Under certain lighting conditions you can plainly see each strip. IMHO you want to hand pick the sheets you get.

Notice here, that the slices are obvious in the foot and head boards, under a flash exposure. Notice that the slices are not noticeable on the towers.

the obvious slices do not show up under "my" normal lighting conditions. finally the finished project.

[dadiOH]

I didn't know they even made rotary cut cherry.

It's not so much that they look better, just different. Some - including me - like the normal "cathedral" figure in flat cut wood. AFATG, rotary is OK too depending on the type of wood; rotary cut luan is fine - IMO - for something where one wants wood but not a lot of pattern from the figure, just innocuous wood. _____________

Lot of pix via Google.

[StephenM]

I vote for flat sawn .

IMO, flat sawn cherry looks nice. I made some bedside tables for a buddy that had cherry riftsawn (solid) tops and drawerfronts. They looked good, different than plainsawn, but not better.

If it were White Oak I would feel differently, but for cherry stick with plain.

Another poster suggested problems with plywood warping. I don't think you will have any problems with MDF core. I did my kitchen in maple using MDF-core flat pannels. It worked out just fine.

-Steve

[-MIKE-]

Well, John, we're all here because we give a rat's ass what others think. Otherwise nobody would ask ask questions, right?

Is this tool any good? Does this technique work? Does this finish look any good on this wood? And my question....

Does quarter or rift sawn look *that* much than flat sawn. And... does anyone have any pictures of flat sawn on their work?

But thanks for that wonderful insight. :-p

[-MIKE-]

Help me understand this. Are these just panels, or did you use rail and stiles? I don't see the proverbial snow ball's chance in he!! of a 1/4" plywood panel warping solid wood rails and stiles.

[-MIKE-]

I guess I confused people with the cherry thing. I just used that as an example of the price difference. I haven't settled on a wood, yet. I'll definitely go with cherry, if I can, since we like a natural finish.

I'm not a big fan of oak for cabinets, anyway.

[-MIKE-]

This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Thanks, Leon.

book. (pun)

Great work, by the way!

[Swingman]

Chances are they were not frame and panel. It warping at all, it would have been from the frames, IME.

Agreed ... I've made literally hundreds of frame and panel doors with

1/4 plywood panels and never had one warp from the panel.

[Swingman]

Mu personal preference is cherry, but I build more oak cabinets than anything else.

As far as plywood, I almost always go with rift sawn for kitchens where I make the call ... and, for my own A&C furniture projects, I use QS for door panels.

Rift sawn makes for a much less "slap you in the face" grain when stained.

Although many folks like the wild grain look.

[adrian]

I don't think the striping problem depends on the way the wood is sawn. In my kitchen they used flat sawn oak plywood for the doors and you can clearly see dramatic contrasts in the color that result from the book matching. The contrast is visible in the normal kitchen lighting. I recently worked on a cabinet where when I went to arrange the wood (quarter sawn cherry) I discovered that if I turned a board end for end the color would change dramatically. To get the colors to match I had to keep the boards oriented the same direction they were in the tree. If I flipped one over (book match) I would get a color contrast unless I also turned it end for end. I suspect that all non-rotary plywood is book matched, so it'll all have this problem.

The ray fleck pattern in quarter sawn cherry is really pretty. Do they sell plywood with that kind of veneer on it? I'd probably favor that over plain sawn cherry, though plain sawn cherry would look nice too. Seems like quarter sawn without the ray fleck pattern wouldn't be worth paying more for. If you were to choose maple I wouldn't see any point in using quarter sawn. A note about maple, though: I got some non-rotary maple plywood recently and it had dark blotches (ambrosia?). Worked out fine in my project as a nice accent, but might not be what you were hoping for in a set of kitchen doors.

[-MIKE-]

Thanks for the insight. I'm not so concerned with the book-matching, although if I have any control over picking, I'll definitely take what you said into account.

The way I see it, at least flat sawn book-matched looks like wood... looks like cut boards. I've seen solid panels doors that weren't exactly color matched, you know?

And I haven't committed to any species, yet.

[-MIKE-]

I'm not going to question that you experienced this problem, just your diagnosis of it. :-)

If those were made of solid wood rails and stiles with 1/4" plywood panels, there is no way on this planet that the 1/4" plywood warped, causing the rails and stile to warp, as well. It's a simple matter of reversed cause and effect, here. The rails/stiles, for whatever reason, warped and pulled the plywood with them.

Now, if you're saying the doors are made only from a rectangle of 1/4" plywood, then yes, with all that humidity, I can see an unsupported piece of 1/4" plywood curling up like a ribbon, in no time.

[SonomaProducts.com]

[dadiOH]

Well, they did.

[John Martin]

Is this tool any good? Does this technique work? Good questions, which should yield some meaningful answers.

Does this finish look any good on this wood? Might, or might not. Depends on the viewer, doesn't it?

You've already told us how much you hate rotary cut veneers. Others may think the rotary cut veneers are fine. You didn't ask about stability, availability or cost differences. All you care about is how it looks. And, as it turns out, you don't even know which wood species you want to use. For all that, Mike, yours is the only opinion that matters.

I'm thinking of buying a new car. Maybe it will be a truck. My problem is that I can't decide between red and blue. Can you help me decide? Would you send me some pictures of red or blue cars or trucks to help me? Oh, sorry - this is a woodworking group. I'll ask in an automotive group instead.

They say there is no such thing as a stupid question. They are wrong.

John Martin