I think you should has said "alignment when received by the customer."
In Frank's case, the poor alignment was not the fault of the factory, which Frank was personally involved with. Yet your phrase appears to place the blame squarely on the factory.
Hmmm... I suppose I can see your point...sort-of. I have been using "factory alignment" interchangably with "out of the box". I didn't think that there would be any confusion - especially since I explained in great detail how the factory alignment gets disturbed. And, since I also explained why factory alignment is important (to properly test the machine) I'm still left wondering how he could have taken offense
- especially since he's made it pretty clear that he thinks alignment is not worth bothering with.
I pretty much want to stick to the statement that Frank quoted and find out why he felt that it was so "insulting and misleading". It was a commentary about people who do a poor job evaluating the quality of a machine, not on the company or the employees that produce the machine. Would he prefer that I conclude that my Unisaw, and the saws of 99% of my customers are low quality just because they didn't arrive with good alignment? I think that would be much more misleading and insulting (not to mention ignorant).
There really was no insult intended in my statement. I cannot imagine the connection between Frank and reviewers who judge a machine's quality by it's "as arrived" alignment. If he does take it as an insult to his work and the company that he works for, then maybe he should consider how his intentionally insulting comments have affected others.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
Clearly, because he interpreted as a dig at the manufacturer and has a long past with one which unfortunately, ended up quite badly. Nevertheless, he has a lot invested and can't let that go...
Just let it be, please...
--
The "Reality Distortion Machine", once started, must obfuscate, and insult with innuendo, ad infinitum. Thunderbird has a "blocked sender" feature ... use it and do us all a favor.
Thanks ...
No no no! That's not what I understand.
His company was responsible for the alignment, and it was done right and "WAS worth bothering over."
Well, you basicly said the factory alignment should not be trusted. Essentially you said that a reviewer should assume all factories screw up. That is a good idea for reviewers, however look at it from Frank's perspective.
Frank's company's goal was to product high quality tools and maintain their reputation. By lumping Frank's company in the same category as the Harbor Freight class of tools, you essentially told him his company, and therefore Frank, was incompetent.
No wonder he got insulted.
Ahhhh, smear politics.
..
Succinct, but remarkably insightful.
Frank
Not particularly true......as a consumer if a product has a particular design flaw or simply suffers from inept shipping it is of note. Even significant if down the road one must move the saw to another location one might need to know shipping precautions. On the other hand if said expensive product has a particular design flaw a replacement part may still leave you with a soon to expire machine just past warrantee......why does indeed matter.
Rod
.
In another thread ("Trouble setting up new table saw") a guy named Dan was trying to resolve an alignment problem. Frank advised him that it wasn't worth bothering over. "lock it down" and "just make sawdust". Don't you remember, you happened to disagree with that particular advice:
Ya, that's the rub. Do you now see the contradiction? While Frank was arguing "just make sawdust" in the "Trouble setting up new table saw" thread, he knew full well how important alignment really is. To Dan he says "just make sawdust" but in his job he insists that the alignment is done right. He gets all bent out of shape if someone says anything that could possibly be misconstrued as a vague implication that the factory alignment isn't accurate.
I didn't say or even imply that the factory had done it wrong. In my followup I made it abundantly clear why I thought it was folly to judge a saw's quality based on it's "out of the box" alignment. I'm sorry that Frank has put himself through this torture over his misunderstanding of my statement. It was not meant to disparage his company or any other company. It was meant to disparage clueless reviewers. They should first make sure the machine is properly aligned and then start to pass judgement on its quality, accuracy, and performance. Unfortunately, you don't see this too often because it requires the reviewer to possess some knowledge and expertise.
Woah there just a minute Max. I never lumped any companies in with any other companies. I made no comparisons between brands or makes of any machines. I never said anything about the competence of Frank, his company, or anybody making any machinery. This is some major leap that your are making here that just doesn't jive with reality.
Actually, I have his "explanation" for why he got "insulted". We've exchanged some email (not that it accomplished anything). I'll do my best to try and explain it in an even handed manner.
Frank feels that I'm a charlatan, a phony. He even went so far as to call me a liar. In his opinion, I give "erroneous information about all manufacturers". According to his email, he finds me "misleading and despicable" and this is why he thinks my statement was "insulting". Every time he responds to my messages with what he considers factual information, it gives me "another opportunity to drop another thousand words of erroneous information, followed by [my] spam link." He says that I prey on the "uninformed".
Frank honestly believes that the factory alignment survives the shipping process 100% of the time. Everyone who buys a new saw should expect it to be accurately aligned right out of the box. Shipping can't cause it to go out of whack - even on machines that are returned with freight damage. And, according to Frank's email, neither can usage. He's got a box full of "marketing research data" that proves this to be true. He has never and will never check the alignment on his table saw because he firmly believes that there is no need. To say anything different is to disparage a manufacturer's reputation for quality.
I'm not sure where that puts Dan and the misalignment that I helped him to correct. Or the thousands of other customers of mine who proclaim how much better their saw works since they have been able to align it properly. Where does that put all the other manufacturers of alignment tools? How about all those authors of books and magazine articles which talk about table saw alignment. These people must all be charlatans and phonies too. Hmmmm.....at least I'm in good company!
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
We have exchanged emails. I responded offline because I felt that anything I had to say in response to thread posts on the matter would not do Ed's business any good, and might cause harm. It was a collossal mistake to do so. A normal person would assume that an offline communication was not for publication. Ed has chosen to take excerpts of my emails and provide his own context. I find that repulsive.
A couple of paragraphs from those emails for clarification:
From my the original email:
"On the thread I offered only anecdotal information and my personal opinion as an individual woodworker, just a member of the "corner tavern" that is the "wreck". I purposely did not bring up any of the information mentioned above. I have no interest in possibly having a negative impact, however small it might be, on your business by going into that. While not personally experienced with your product, it is my understanding that it is well respected in the industry".
From an email sent just before reading this most recent post:
"While I appreciate any attempt to add to my education, you may be somewhat presumptuous in that regard. And my position is clear. Nothing I have in my data base would be helpful in increasing the demand for your product. But as stated before, I have no intention of posting any information that would cause harm either. My choice to not respond on the NG is in your best interest......
Back to the present, so there it is, I've learned my lesson. I will not respond in any thread that has a post by Ed Bennett nor will we continue to be pen pals offline.
Frank
Well, you simply pack the tool the same way it was shipped. If it shipped successfully 1 time it should ship sucessfully another time providing you use a good shipper.
You're beginning to see why he has been in my bit bucket for some time.
Lew
in an ideal world all shipping variables can be taken into account. in the real world, shipments get tossed around by storms at sea, pallets get left out in the rain and boxes get dropped. the higher degree of precision the factory setup the more susceptible it is to change- any change, even temperature swings. now, generally woodworking equipment isn't the most precise stuff around, and I'm sure the manufacturers do cost- benefit analyses of precision factory setup among other things and find a happy medium. then we as users tweak the machines to our individual requirements, even using aftermarket parts and devices. no prob (TM Joat) everybody gets what they need and a thriving economy exists based on table saw alignment devices.
very few precision machines arrive from the manufacturer plug and play at their optimum performance, and the ones that *must* do so come with a tech from the factory to do the setup.
Well, what can I do?
I still stand by my original statement as it was intended. Any reviewer who judges the quality of a machine (like a table saw) based on its factory ("out of the box") alignment (like fence and blade alignment) is demonstrating his ignorance and doing a great disservice to his readers and the company that produced that machine. I say this because I believe that it's rare for machinery to retain its original factory alignment during the shipping process. I do not believe that it's valid to judge the quality of workmanship for a machine until it is properly assembled and accurately aligned.
It's Frank's choice to misinterpret this statement as "insulting and misleading". He has decided to believe that it was meant as a "misleading and despicable" "lie" designed to "take in the mostly uninformed". He insists that it is a derogatory statement aimed at machinery manufacturers (his, in particular). And, he continues to do this after having been corrected multiple times both publicly and privately. His eagerness to take offense where none was intended (or even remotely inferred) and refusal to acknowledge correction leads me to believe that his professed concern for my business is very disingenuous.
In my defense, and to characterize just how ludicrous Frank's misinterpretation is, I would ask people to recall the number of times I've suggested the use a dial indicator on a stick rather than purchase one of my products if only blade and fence alignment is needed. I have even acknowledged the validity of traditional "feel the rub" alignment techniques (with the caveat that I find them to be tedious and time consuming). My products are designed to do much more than that and are a big overkill (i.e. waste of money) for such a limited application. If you're not going to tilt your blade, cut miters, change jointer knives, setup a miter saw, drill press, shaper, band saw, etc. then don't get a TS-Aligner. Not only have I said this many times in the newsgroup, but it's on my web site too.
I have never intentionally misled anybody in the newsgroup or shared information that I did not believe to be true and accurate. There have been occasions where I have been mistaken. But, when corrected I have always acknowledged the truth and offered sincere public apologies when appropriate. I know for a fact that I have successfully helped many people in the group without selling them anything. I have done my best to adhere to the Usenet guidelines for commercial activity in newsgroups (which specifically mentions the use of a web site link in the signature).
There are individuals in the group who feel compelled to denigrate those who want to develop their machinery skills and make the most of their investment. They are quick to follow up messages with their derogatory comments and imagined insults characterizing me and anybody who would listen to me as something less than a real woodworker (e.g.: "wood machinist", etc.). When that doesn't work, then they start trying to embarrass me directly with references to the "Bennett wars" and other such nonsense. When all else fails they often flaunt their ignorance as a virtue. Somehow, they can never bring themselves to see things from a different perspective and allow people to pursue their own interests in peace. And, they can never admit when they've gone too far. Well, there's only so much stupidity I can take. The morons win. "Just make sawdust!"
One last thing: On the topic of "market research studies"...we've all heard about the market research that led Detroit auto makers to ignore foreign competition and keep making big ugly cars in the '70s. And, we've all heard how market research studies said that "New Coke" would be a big hit. Well, when I get together with my old friends from a previous job, we laugh over multitudes of similar stories that have never seen the light of day. I think I can share one that will make a point:
It seems that the Marketing folks did a study that led them to believe that a particular product would sell like hotcakes if there was a version with black "skins" (that's what they call the outside plastic covers). So, they asked me to run the numbers and report the impact to warranty cost as a percentage of revenue. Well, the new parts would need to be stocked in every distribution center, every repair center, and every dealer repair depot worldwide - a huge inventory. And, all the service manuals would need to be updated to reflect the new part numbers. Technicians, warehouse personnel, and call center agents would all need to be trained. Allowances would need to be made for the exchange of parts when the wrong color was ordered. And, there would be the increase in call center traffic from people who don't get all the updates and need help getting the right parts.
The increase in warranty cost was big enough to shut down the whole idea. In response, a new market research study concluded that the black skins would be so popular that people would be willing to pay extra for the product - so much extra that the increased warranty costs were completely offset. So, with management's blessing the project went ahead.
Separate tooling was made (it's tough to flush out a mold after running black resin), repair part inventories were stocked, personnel were trained, manuals were updated, notices went out, etc. The new black skin version was finally introduced and nothing happened. For a product that was projected to sell about 75 million units, the black skin version ended up selling between 30-40 thousand units. There were more spares in the worldwide repair parts inventory than units in customer hands.
Next thing I know, I'm sitting in yet another Marketing presentation where the project is being lauded as a big success. Awards were being given out and people were saying that they should do it again. The moral of this story is: there is no task that cannot be justified, or idea that cannot be proven with a Market Research Study. It's the best evidence that money can buy!
Thanks, Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
There are stories that the "New Coke" was either a marketing ploy, or else a means to change the recipe (i.e. cheaper) without the uproar in the change in taste.
You're right Ed, very interesting (entertaining?) thread this has turned out to be...
Yep, Ed's been around long enough to see this happen dozens of times.
helped you. That's all I wanted to do - lend some of my expertise to help you out. I didn't try to sell you anything. I didn't say anything that I didn't believe to be absolutely true. I didn't say anything with the intent to insult anybody. But, this happens in virtually every single thread that I offer technical advice in. And, it's usually instigated by the same group of people (at one point or another, most of them chimed in on this thread).
I hope you find your dial indicator useful and a lot easier than a bevel blade attached to the miter bar ;-). Don't let the ignorant hecklers discourage you from using your brain. Thinking people can be real woodworkers - they just have to endure a lot of taunting and heckling.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.