How much runout on TS is too much

[klaatu]

all the way out ( but not on the stop) and down as far as you can and still get a measurement. The main thing is to not have the blade cut wood on the back side at any depth of cut .

[RayV]

Followup:

Returned the 'Silver' coated Avanti blade and ordered a 50T Frued Diablo. Probably not as good as a WWII but half the price. I am also very happy with the 80T Diablo I have, cuts great and will easily rip

3/4" Maple even though it is not made to do so.

Checked the runout on my arbor, barely perceptible ~0.00015. Good.

Checked the runout on the flange and at first it was ~0.0015! Then I noticed that even touching the belt caused the needle to jump (contractor saw). So I took the belt off and the flange runout is ~0.0003 after a little touch up with emery cloth, good enough for me.

Put the original 28T Jet blade on that made maybe three cuts in its life and the blade runout was 0.005! WTF? Spun it 180 and now the runout was 0.001. Spun it back and runout was 0.002? Took the blade off to see that it was scratched/smutzed up. Emery clothed it and now the runout is around 0.001 in any position (without the belt). I'm satisfied the saw is OK and the Avanti blade was a POS.

OK, so is all this checking worth it? I think it is, it takes maybe five minutes to check the runout of a newly mounted blade. Well worth it to find out that an errant wood chip got stuck between the blade and the flange making a smooth cut nearly impossible. I plan to keep the dial indicator in a much handier spot. That way I can check a blade that has been lying around for a year with an Allen wrech under one side and a stacked dado set sitting on top of it ;-).

Enough measuring, I need sleep so I can make some sawdust tomorrow.

[Ferd Farkel]

this

to check my setup

Do any PM 66 owners here know the tolerances of their saws? I aligned my humble Delta contractor's saw with that jig, and it cuts easier than any 66 I've ever seen. I think I got the blade parallel to the slot to within 0.002".

[RayV]

Verata Nictu? Necktie?

[Leon]

I think Jow was refering to ripping a board to width 3" +, - .001" If you are doing "that", don't remeasure today's rip tomorrow. :~)

[Jeff]

[Ed Bennett]

I don't happen to have a PM66 handy right now, but I'm very familiar with it. It's a fine machine. I wouldn't mind trading in my Unisaw for one. I wouldn't trade one for any contractor's saw. If it isn't aligned properly, the best table saw can perform much worse than an everyday humble contractor's saw. I know for a fact that there are a lot of real cheap junkers out there outperforming high end cabinet saws. Alignment does make a difference.

When I look at comparative reviews of machinery, the first thing I look for is a description of how the machine was prepared. Most reviewers ignore alignment completely. Some check the "factory" alignment in a misguided (ignorant) attempt to judge the quality of workmanship. I don't think I've seen a reviewer pay attention to setup and alignment since Kelly Mehler's table saw review in the April

2003 edition of Woodworker's Journal. You can't make valid comparisons between two machines until they are both properly setup and aligned. Glad to see that Kelly understood this - wish more did.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Ferd Farkel]

The 66 is a great machine, made for shops that turn it on at 8 AM and off at 5.

I aligned my Delta for safety, with the rear trunnion bolts upgraded to PALS brackets. Improved cut quality is a welcome side benefit.

[Frank Boettcher]

An insulting and misleading statement. Leads the reader to consider that there is no basis for quality judgement and comparison from the alignment done on the assembly line by the manufacturer.

The truth is unless the component parts are just terrible, all saws can be "set" to very close to zero at 90 degrees and I suspect that most manufacturers have assembly procedures that achieve that using rather sophisticated set up tools. I know one does at least. As the blade is tilted, it is exactly the "quality of the workmanship" of the component parts that determines the reading at 45 degrees and the difference between the two figures is an excellent indicator of the quality of workmanship when comparing different units. The flatter the table, the more parallel the boss plane to the top, the flatter the cabinet top plate plane, the more accurate the trunnion/brackets, yoke assembly and arbor assembly, the closer that 45 degree figure will stay to zero out of the box. While there are certain things you can do to offset the tolerance stackup of some of those parts if others are bad "you got what you got".

Frank

[bridgerfafc]

factory setup is a relevant data point, in that it indicates how much care the Mfr. puts into final stage QC., less shipping jostling. the shipping is the real bugger for factory setup... you're always gonna have to do some alignment to a machine that has been moved. a good argument can be made that the consumer benefits more from the effort and QC. going somewhere other than into factory alignment, but it also can be argued that the production line that aligns each and every saw will have a better handle on and more interest in all of the upstream precision machining processes.

me, I mostly buy old machines anyway, so factory alignment is kinda a moot point in my shop.

[Leon]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. A company that does not take measures to insure that a product is delivered in the same shape it leaves the factory has no "real" QC as far as the customer is concerned. What really matters is that the sale is completed with a product that is delivered in the same shape that it leaves the factory. Blaming the shipping company is a pittyful excuse and is simply dropping the ball where the customer is concerned. If the manufacturer does not package, package properly for shipping, and monitor the shipper to insure delivery of undamaged products it may as well nave no QC at all. Ignoring those facts is what has gotten many of them in the jam that they are in today. Sorry to mention this again Frank, Delta had a problem with broken trunions on their Unisaws some 10 years ago. Does it really matter why the trunion arrived broken? The consumer saw a product that was broken. That was the #1 reason I chose the Jet over the Delta when I bought 7-8 years ago. The Delta setting on the show room floor with the "broken tag" attached to the top was not inviting. The saw looked fine.

My Jet cabinet saw was delivered with no adjustment needed after factory alignment, that goes for my Laguna BS, and Delta stationary planer.

[Frank Boettcher]

And since you mentioned it again I'll reiterate the facts. As a percentage of units shipped a small number of units were damaged in shipment in a way that caused trunions to break. Extensivel testing determined that what caused the breakage was a full running tipover where the unit was slammed over on a concrete dock or tipped out of a warehouse rack. I seriously doubt that any "packaging" would have stopped that from happening, but in any event, you as a consumer would not want to pay for it. When a rather expensive improper handling device was added to the packaging, the problem went away. Your distributor, who left a broken unit on his floor did not have to. Delta was allowing immediate freight allowed RMA's and replacement units for any damaged units as they did for any type of damage. Why your distributor chose to keep the saw is a mystery to me. No end user customer was ever "stuck" with a unit that had broken trunions. If the distributor had used the RMA process, you as a consumer, would not have had the opportunity to see the broken tag.

Your comment about "may as well have no QC at all" is insulting to those involved with it and is, of course, your opinion with full right to express it on an open forum

Frank

[Leon]

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Boettcher"

Exactly, Delta recognised the problem and provided a fix rather than let it continue.

Your

I don't know the details however the distrubutor did indicate that they had been waiting for Delta to send a replacement trunion. The saw looked factory freah and IIRC the distributor has 20+ stores in Texas. Perhaps the unit was damaged during delivery to the store vs perhaps from a warehouse. I do recall mentioning the problem with the saw way back when and was actually contacted by a Delta rep inquiring where this saw was located so that the parts could be delivered. He did not mention that the saw would be exchanged. Time may have been a decising factor.

Well Frank, a comment that may be perceived as an insult to some is often perceived as a unique opportunity to fix a problem by others. Excuses do not fix problems. Those that act on that valuable information tend to stay in business and or not get sold every few years.

You should absolutely not take offense if you were not responsible.

It can be said that it is equally insulting to the buyer when the manufacturer defends a product and or its manufacturing and delivery by blaiming how the product was handled. WHO chooses the shipping company? The dealer/consumer does not care, as the fact remains that the equipment is in no condition to be used. No one but the manufacturer is responsable for its merchandise and how it arrives because they are the only ones that can do something different to remedy the problem. Ultimately the manufacturer needs to eat a slice of humble pie and get with the program, catch up with the competition, and deliver what the buyer expects to get. Imagine going to a new car dealership with 1% of the vehicles coming off of the deliveries trucks being wrecked badly enough that it cannot be sold. For the average dealership in Houston that would be

1 to 2 vehicles every week. It probably happens but in the 10 years that I worked for an automobile dealership I never saw it happen. GM used to have a terrible problem with damaged parts deliveries. They switched to a dedicated carrier with equipment specifically designed to deliver auto parts and sheet metal with out damage. They may have considered it an insult when we dealership managers complained about the quality of the packaging and delivery process however we never heard complaints from GM.

[Frank Boettcher]

Please excuse my top post,no offense is intended, but I've been down this road with you many times over about a five year period. Not going there again. Any one interested can google away. I will always just single post respond when you bring it up, provide a brief outline of the facts, let anyone who reads make up their minds. Frank

[Ed Bennett]

I think it's important for the factory to test machinery before it ships. And, you can't tell if a machine is operating properly (accurately) unless it's aligned. Aligning it at the factory also proves that it can be aligned. You would be amazed at the number of customers who call me to say that they cannot move the trunnions enough to obtain proper blade alignment because the castings are so far out of whack. My own unisaw was incapable of blade tilt all the way to 45 degrees as delivered. I had to go after the castings with a file (as recommended by the tech support guy) before it worked properly.

It's not very reasonable to expect that a machine can maintain proper alignment after riding around on fork lifts, in trucks, and on rail cars. The amount of vibration and thermal variation that it receives would challenge the skills of even the best engineers to come up with ways to maintain alignment. It would be a waste of time and money to implement such countermeasures to ensure that factory alignment was maintained during shipping. If a manufacturer really wants to ensure the best customer experience, then they should sell through dealers who provide accurate setup and alignment at no extra charge. But, in this "big box" retail world, it's not a very practical option.

In the 16 years that I've been making TS-Aligners (many thousands of units), I think I've heard from only 3-4 customers who said that their machine was accurately aligned from the factory. I chalk it up to pure luck.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Ed Bennett]

I don't know why anybody would take offense Frank. I really don't think it's reasonable to expect a machine to maintain proper alignment after riding around on forklifts, trucks, and rail cars. The vibrations and thermal changes virtually guarantee that alignment will be lost during shipping. If I were personally responsible for aligning and testing table saws at the end of a production line I would not be surprised or offended to learn that 99.9% of the machines that I so carefully aligned arrived completely out of whack. It's just physics. My Unisaw needed alignment, and it came with a bunch of "shock watch" tags on it.

I think a manufacturer cannot verify that a machine is defect free until they properly align and test it. And, the quality can be clearly judged inferior if a machine cannot be properly aligned. But, the state of alignment as delivered "out of the box" is pretty much irrelevant.

I agree, there are certain aspects of alignment (like the tilt axis parallelism to the table top that you mention here) that are dependent on quality of manufacture. It would be incredibly easy (and inexpensive) to implement in-process 100% inspection of every single casting that gets machined. And, the use of the Meehanite casting process would significantly reduce (eliminate) post machining warpage. I suspect that only an exceptional manufacturer would do such things. And, if they really did, then I would expect that none of their saws would require shimming under the trunnions or between the base and the table (or, such a small number that you would just never hear about it).

Having heard of this problem from owners of all the most popular brands, I suspect that they really aren't doing anything substantial in this area. My 80's vintage "Proudly made in the USA" Unisaw needed shimming (among things) before it would operate properly. So, whatever Delta did before shipping my machine, it didn't help much.

This might be how I "got what I got" with my Unisaw. If the tolerances stack up so that the product (when fully assembled) can not be properly aligned (without shimming, filing, or other modifications), then any mechanical engineer will tell you that the manufacturing process is poorly designed. Tolerances are *supposed* to define the range of variability for which no defect can occur. Unfortunately, too many manufacturers define their tolerances as the range of variability for which an affordable amount of warranty expense occurs. I'm in the "zero defect" camp, not the "acceptable warranty liability" camp - which never made me very popular with the bean-counter types. They were always glad that I only did the numbers, not the decisions.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Frank Boettcher]

My mistake Ed. I should have assumed you would not see the offense. But the mistake was mine. I should never have reacted. It offered you another chance to extend your not so subtle spam campaign. Won't happen again.

Frank

[Leon]

Where is there to go Frank? I was only pointing out that a manufacturers responsibility is and the "Fact" that Delta had problems with broken trunions. Why they had problems is beside the point as far as their target audience is concerned. Ultimately Delta made changes to lessen the problem, right? And to be fair, Delta was not the only company that had shipping problems. Grizzly had a tremendous problem with their shipper several years back. Apparently they too have taken steps to correct the problem.

[Ed Bennett]

I still don't see it Frank. Why don't you explain it? The comment wasn't directed at any particular person, company, or machine. It was a comment about some who do machinery reviews without any technical expertise. Did you author such a review article?

Why does a guy who proudly declares that he has never checked the alignment of his saw get offended when someone says that it's pretty ignorant to judge the quality of a machine by the accuracy of it's factory alignment?

Why does a guy who says "just make sawdust" to someone who wants to correct misalignment in their saw get so offended when someone says that it's pretty ignorant to judge the quality of a machine by the accuracy of it's factory alignment?

I think my Unisaw is a great machine. I have been real hard on it for about 20 years and it's still amazingly accurate. I didn't expect it to be well aligned "right out of the box" and it wasn't. If I had been so misguided, I might have concluded that it was a poor quality machine. That would have been a big mistake on my part. Ya, it took some filing and some shimming to get it fully aligned but It was a one- time event so I didn't make such a big deal out of it. I share that info here with the hope that I can steer others clear of making such an ignorant misjudgement of quality.

If there's real cause for offense, then you know that I will appologize - and it won't be one of those backhanded "...if there was something I said.." BS appologies. And I'll do it without any expectation of reciprocation (in spite of the "spam campaign" comment, which was intended as an insult).

Just explain why you are personally insulted when someone says that the quality of a machine should not be judged by the accuracy of its factory alignment.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner.com

[Andrew Barss]

: Just explain why you are personally insulted when someone says that : the quality of a machine should not be judged by the accuracy of its : factory alignment.

And more to the point, the accuracy of its factory alignment as affected by its post-factory experiences being shipped across the ocean and loaded/unloaded on any number of conveyances. Then hauled into a shop, uncrated, and possibly rolled around out of its crate during assembly.

-- Andy Barss