High end cabinets - pocket holes or M&T?????

[Richard Holliingsworth]

Hello:

For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T joints?

Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and production pocket hole machines. They all run around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is, which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be more versitle???

So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you recommend?

Thanks, Richard Hollingsworth

[Stephen M]

IMHO Cabinets are not "fine furniture"... their expected lifetime is 30 years (give or take). I expect hierloom furniture to be good for at least a century. This justifies differnet techniques.

In my kitchen cabs I used both:

For cabinet face frames.... Pocket holes all the way. They never show, and it just makes like "way too easy".

For the doors, I used M&T..... However I am proabbly in the minority there. The mainstream answer would probably be to use rail and stile cutters which forms an integrated "stub tennon" on the rail.

Personally I would never use pocket holes on a door. PHJ is really ugly but functional, doors are just way to visible.

[Lawrence A. Ramsey]

I can think of several applications where a pocket hole screw would be much stronger than a M&T. I prefer Pocket holes due to strength and speed and ease. M&T really slows things down. Might consider it IF I had a wealthy customer who could appreciate such things. Maybe.

[gabriel]

Where?

[charlie b]

If life span of the piece is THE criteria for "fine furniture" then the base cabinet for my mortising machine qualifies - all joints being either M&T or box/finger joints.

If the joinery is to be a design element of the piece as well, then through M&T along with dowels and rectangular pegs make it "fine furniture" though a lot of "Craftsman" and "Stickley" pieces have faux joints.

I can think of an example where pocket hole joinery may be better than M&T - specifically table leg/table apron joints, assuming there's ust enough room for two pocket holes for each end of each apron.

charlie b

[nyboy10128]

It depends on the primary work you'll be doing. If you're a custom cabinet shop doing mostly kiitche/bath cabinets, go with the pocket hole machine. You probably won't use that many M&T's in your construction. Cope and stick joinery is plenty strong for the average size kitchen cabinet door. If you do furniture in your shop go with the mortiser it's more versitle.

[Young_carpenter]

M&T and Pocket holes are two very different processes. Pocket holes are now the generally accepted method for Face frames. Strength is relative to a degree. If you use glue with the pocket joints and you break that joint then There has probably been way too much force applied or your wood quality stinks. Pocket holes now have plugs too and they are used to add to the piece's looks. If all you plan on doing is Cabinets for a kitchen go Pocket holes. IF you still think a M&T is needed once in a while and really want that machine because it's cool, think about purchasing a Kreg Jig ($120-$150) and the Mortiser.

[Gregg Germain]

Richard Holliingsworth wrote: : Hello:

: For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T : joints?

: Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and : production pocket hole machines. They all run : around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which : I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is, : which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also : know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face : frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be : more versitle???

: So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you : recommend?

: Thanks, : Richard Hollingsworth

Hi Rich,

When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets? Or things like dressers and hutches?

To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails.

--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

FAQ with photos:

"Improvise, adapt, overcome." [e-mail] Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: [phone]

[Eric Johnson]

Mortise and tenon for everything I build but I cut mortises with a horizontal router station I built some years back. It works adequately and more important consistently. I'm not building cabinets in "production" but more generally in onsite custom jobs and this thing can easily be loaded in the trailer and brought to the job I categorize pocket screws as shortcuts but there are times when they must be used. I do wonder about your use of the word production. Are you actually doing continual repetitive cabinet joinery?

EJ

[Alan Bierbaum]

If the cabinets are tied down (kitchens or baths); I use pocket screws. Inexpensive built ins like book case units will use pocket holes as well. If the item is free standing or built in in the "furniture" class; I use dovetail joints or M&T.

[Preston Andreas]

For high end cabinets with face frames, I still use pocket holes unless somebody wants to pay extra for M&T. I use M&T and other classic joints for furniture. For that, I have a Powermatic mortiser.

However, lately I have turned more to doing mortise and tenons with a router. The jigs are simple, the milling is cleaner than seen with the hollow chisel mortiser and I am convinced I have a stronger joint. Also, when using a router, you can do a through M&T without worrying as much about tearout as you go through. You still need a backer board, but even with a backer board, there usually is some tearout with a hollow chisel mortiser.

So for me, since I can do the M&T easily with a router, I would go for the pocket hole machine.

[RemodGuy]

"dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about? read these posts. we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,

[Phisherman]

I've seen numerous tests that show M&T to be the strongest joint. Pocket holes are fast and easy, and probably strong enough for many applications. Personally, I would not use them if the ugly oval-hole plugs show.

[Morris Dovey]

I would think that the application would be the determining factor. For example, I can't imagine that steel wouldn't be better at resisting shear; and I would expect a good M&T joint to better resist racking.

I've been playing with modified lap joints that lock together in

3D. I'm posting sketches of three of these in news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking if anyone's interested.

[Dave]

How about a picture of that machine? It sounds interesting.

Dave

[Swingman]

He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails _are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of "cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."

[Eric Johnson]

Dave, Haven't stepped up to the digital photo age yet but this will get you close. Shopnotes issue #68 has the same concept with a few spins on it that are considerably better designed than what I built. Following is a link to the shopnotes back issue store that has a picture as well as the issue has plans. If you look close at the pic in the link you can see angled slides for setting the table height, this is a superior design to mine as I built mine with 2 verticle slots with locknuts which makes setup a little more complicated. Still works great though.

[Jeff Cochran]

One thing not mentioned in other posts is a design consideration. If you want the look of a tenon joint, pocket holes won't help. Granted, that's rarely an issue in cabinetry, but it might be in yours.

We have one local artisan who finger joints face frames on cabinetry, using dissimilar woods. The pieces are extraordinary, and naturally the cost is considerably more. But these are as much art pieces as cabinetry.

So pretty much it all depends on your particular style, taste and design. If you're looking at buying this equipment, you've been doing this long enough to have a good idea of waht your business is, and where you'd like it to go. Base your decision on that.

Jeff

[Gregg Germain]

RemodGuy wrote: :> Hi Rich, :> :> When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets? :> Or things like dressers and hutches? :> :> To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails. :> :> : "dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about?

the carcase

: we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me : to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,

Not drawers either. The carcase.

[RemodGuy]

yes, but more specifically, he asked about M&T and pocket holes. from there the posts naturally went to doors and face frames (as i'm sure it was intended to do).