Help on some finish work?

[Picasso]

Really like the look of these doors with the white trim...

one here looks like the same house/trim too to figure out how to replicate this trim in my home. Only thing i'm not REAL crazy over is the quarter round on the floor against the base trim, but with the high base, it does actually look ok.

What i'm thinking is this:

5/8" thick door case, approx 3" wide?

Cap on the door looks like it might be 3/4" thick about 4" high, overhung 1/2" over the side case, and looks like a piece of 3/4" on its side, overhanging the cap by about 1/4" on the front, and 1/2" on the right and left?

Base looks like its 3/8" because it doesnt look to be as thick as the door case??? not sure what that base is....

All looks to be made from MDF? Any thoughts? Does MDF come in 1"??? i know i've seen 1/2 and 3/4... not sure about 1"?

Any help from someone who knows would be great

I like the simple clean look of this... anything to get me away from using the "colonial" mdf stuff that i can't stand.

Also, any thoughts on using a typical 6-panel pine door with tung oil or linseed and maybe an oil varnish on top for durability... as i have not seen any 4 panel mission style alder doors around.

Thanks a lot, any opinions or critisizm on this would be apperciated and expected also.

I have been leaning away from doing white trim and typical 6-panel white doors, as i think its too white for my taste... but i finially found this white trim with wood doors and i think they work well togather...

Plus with my new white vinyl windows an all wood trim house would not look right...

[nailshooter41]

These are pretty popular trim details these days. Simple trims with little or no profiles seem to be going in more and more upper end houses and office finish outs.

If you are going to do your whole house, take a moment and make the trim to test out its appearance. Hang your door, and then tack the trim on so you can get the actual "in the house" appearance you want. This will allow you to add and subtract thickness, width, and reveals as you want to get exactly what you are after.

Spray a litte KILZ on your material or slap some paint in the test pieces so you will see what you are going to have in the final product.

You can make these trims easily enough with the correct grade of MDF. It also comes in anywhere from 1/4' to 1" thickness like my old router table top. You can buy this, rip is, ease an edge over with a router as needed, and you are on your way to making your own trims.

To finish the MDF, shoot it with BIN, not KILZ. BIN seals better and adheres better than just about anything. I like to prime first, then caulk/seal as it shows EVERY detail that needs to be corrected. After caulking/filling/re-sanding, reprime as needed. With a good coat of primer on the material, a couple of coats of quality enamel should give you great wear.

As for the door, if you want maximum wear, use poly. These days, I wouldn't want to live on the edge of difference between poly, but my personal experience is that poly is more easily cleaned (and stands up to cleaning better than varnish) and is much more abrasion resistant.

I am not sure why you would want to put linseed oil/BLO on a piece of wood before finishing, but be prepared to wait for up to 30 days before top coating it to wait for he oil to cure out. I wouldn't do it. Personally, that oiling method is fine for a guy making a project in his garage with lots of fiddle time. but by the time you do a house full of 6 panel doors that require 2 - 3 coats each, you will be well tired of this project before you are finished.

Take your finish out and try it on piece of similar wood as your doors. If you like the way it looks, just use that. For just about any top coat over any virgin (unfinished) wood, the top coat material itself is the best primer. Nothing sticks to a top coat finish like itself. If you are refinishing these doors, clean them as well as you can, then shoot some sanding sealer (shellac or other NC) and then sand and apply your top coat.

Good luck!

Robert

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:26:56 -0700 (PDT), the infamous " [e-mail]" scrawled the following:

The irony strikes hard, Robert. There's a phrase I never thought I'd see on the Wreck. "the correct grade of MDF." Whoda thunk it?

Excellent ideas, Naily. I shall have to remember them.

What do you use to refinish after the poly? What's your favorite DEpolyer?

-- "Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein -=-=-

[Mark & Juanita]

Having been building our own furniture for the past years, I did not realize the extent to which MDF has become a dominant material. A group of us helped our pre-school teacher move yesterday. I helped the group who re- assembled the bedroom furniture; with the exception of the 3 pine 1 x 3 slats across the width of the base, everything was MDF (fortunately, it the lightweight breed of MDF). The lower rails: 8" wide rounded over and painted (outside only) MDF with a 2" strip of MDF on the inside to serve as the ledge for the mattress slats. Headboard and footboard completely MDF. The only wood on the dresser was part of the frame for the mirror, the rest was all MDF. One could probably buy the materials for the entire bedroom suite for less than $300. Absolutely amazing.

... snip

[nailshooter41]

It's nasty. But then, so is the "#1" grade, or "clear" grade of woods we have to work with these days. I have finished enough warped Chilean pine to reforest a small country. That seems to be the only clear stuff available that someone can afford. But with its aversion to moisture and problems it can bring with installation, a lot have turned to MDF. Personally, I would have never believed it either. But the hard, super dense stuff wears better than wood, and will give a great finish.

I don't mess around. I go straight for the guns on that. I buy from Dave here:

him and ask him what you need. He has stuff that will permanently scar you in just minutes; it isn't the HD stuff. I used to buy his stuff 10 gallons at a time when I had a good line on refinishing work. (He also sells the best conversion lacquer made.) He sold me some stripper that cut through layers of oil based finish with one pass. I refinished some doors that had been "recoated" with poly over varnish, etc., to get about 5 coats of finish. His stuff ate it ALL off in just two coatings. Outside use only, will gloves, respirator, plenty of rags and heavy disposal bags.

If it isn't a really tough job, I like the BIX in the orange/red can. It is pretty effective.

Anymore Larry, I wouldn't worry about the difference between the polys, varnishes, and the products in between. They are all pretty much down to a finite difference the man made resins they use as well as the mix of solvents. Special applications still require certain products, and for example there isn't a substitute for a good marine grade varnish due to its elasticity and excellent UV resistance.

On the other hand, some of the super polys cure harder than varnish will, so that makes them more cleanable and more suitable for hard wear surfaces like floors, table tops, high use doors, etc.

Robert

[nailshooter41]

If you are in the building industry itself, I think even then it takes a minute to think through how pervasive the use of MDF is in building. Sometimes you use it but don't know it. And even if you are installing a "wood" product, it is likely that it has MDF of one grade or another in it somewhere.

The first time I saw a lot of MDF (the raw, naked stuff) used on a job was when I was called to install a very expensive front door with a very difficult box lock and hardware. The door/hardware installation was all I was there to do.

The door was mounted in a heavy wood jamb. But all the trims, in and out were MDF. The outside trim bundle was a package that came clearly marked as the outside facing, and was some kind of very water resistant stuff. It was heavy almost like it was solid resin.

I thought it was total crap when I installed it, but boy was I wrong. They (client was an architect) wanted the MDF for the sharpness of detail and the fact the outside layered pattern could be purchased as a bundle. The trim went on fine, held nails great, and was easy to cut. But the real star was when that stuff was finished.... wow!

Smooth, flat, all detailing and profiles were crisp and clean.

Inside, they used all MDF as well, except in the bathrooms.

The product looked great when installed inside, but they didn't prep it and install it correctly as they handled the material like it was regular wood trim. I didn't pay attention at the time as I was only there to install the door and the lock, but I went back there later for other work.

They didn't let the material acclimate, didn't glue or pin the joints, they didn't seal the back of the trim before installing, and they tried to use 45 degree scarfs on the joints.

You know the rest. The joints move, the open and close, the move away from each other, etc. It still looks good, just not great.

Now a lot of that stuff I see is preprimed, so that's half the battle right there. I don't think that it will be long before almost all our trims are MDF, and wood (even finger jointed) will be special order only.

Never thought I would live long enough to see it, but when the next building boom hits, I am sure of it.

Robert

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:35:53 -0700, the infamous Mark & Juanita scrawled the following:

You didn't mean "Cool!" there, did you, Mark? I didn't think so.

-- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren

[hex]

I won't comment on what the material is since it's tough to really know from a photo. I just finished up the trim in our new home over the weekend; we modeled it after a 1917 prairie style home we now have as a rental. I came into about 3k linear feet of quarter and rift sawn red oak, ~5" wide x heavy 4/4, random lengths 8-12' so I used that to make the trim. Painted it all builder's white of course since I didn't want to see all that straight boring grain and those funny rays; luckily there was only one knot to fill in the whole house.

The headers, and legs for door's are the same thickness in both the repro and the original. The juncture at the bottom of the door is managed by plinth blocks with about 1/8" to 3/32" reveal. Plinths are about 3/8" taller than the base, IIRC. In the photo you linked to the legs go all the way to the floor. If you have a wide baseboard with tile/wood/laminate you'll probably need some sort of shoe molding. Even if the floor is perfectly flat now, in 50 years it probably won't be. If you don't like the qtr round, you can make the shoe taller and integrate it into the visual for the base so it doesn't look like it was added in a fit of desperation.

As has been said elsewhere in replies to your message: mock up a full door (and window if you can) before you commit to production. During the mock up you can play with the subtle details even you already have a basic plan.

(Ok, for those actually read this message: finish was really two coats Pratt & Lambert stain followed by two coats of ML Campbell lacquer, but there is really only one visible knot and it's in a closet.)

hex

-30-

[Nonny]

Here in Las Vegas, real wood is virtually nonexistent for trim. The baseboards and door trim are made of a cardboard-like material. Doors have pre-mitered trim kits of the stuff, and that includes the casing as well. Windows here are aluminum trimmed on the outside and without trim on the inside. Surprisingly, the drywall is generally somewhere between very good-to-excellent in quality, with an orange peel texture on the ceiling and walls. Corners are ROUNDED, as opposed to square. This means that the baseboards are cut square and there's a transition piece on each outside corner.

BTW, this is almost universal in homes, and not just cracker box ones. I've been inside several that sold for as much as $3m, and found exactly the same cardboard trim.

[Picasso]

Don't confuse MDF with particleboard. What i'm speaking of is MDF, medium density fiberboard

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:50:29 -0700 (PDT), the infamous " [e-mail]" scrawled the following:

PAINTED finish, you mean? Agreed.

good stuff for 1/4 the price the Borgs get.

I used the MEK-based strippers on Imron and the like, so I'm familiar with precautions. Vapors come right through nitrile and latex gloves, so I put on latex and two layers of nitrile when I work with it. At he first sign of a chilly feeling (precedes the burning) I swap 'em all out for new.

Never tried it.

True.

Yeah, I wanted to try it out so I used Behlen's Rockhard varnish on my recycled dining set. It had been outside for a month and the sun had peeled some of the oak veneer off the MDF. Amazingly enough, the TTV matched the oak veneer and the MDF perfectly. Unless you look closely, you won't see the missing veneer which I feathered smooth. TTV has phenolic resins, like the Waterlox I dearly love. TTV is so thick, it takes away all "hand" from the wood, which I don't like. It doesn't hide its plastic makeup, but it is fairly tough stuff with a nice, amber tone, like older oil-based varnishes.

-- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren

[Pat Barber]

Well now that the next cast iron(MDF) is no longer a sin, how do feel about the other "wood" called miratec ???

board that don't rot ???? who would have thunk it ...

[Swingman]

Like this?:

upon what the client wants, and it changes with the wind.

The above, which I finished recently, is very common, along with a very light roller texture on the interior walls, and popcorn on the ceiling is still a popular option.

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:07:25 -0400, the infamous Pat Barber scrawled the following:

I haven't tried either yet, but I think I'd prefer AZEK, et al, instead.

do die, mostly because of drowning. (They eventually soak up water.) My clients usually choose PT wood for the lower price and some have already been disappointed by Trex and the other composites due to staining, delamination, pitting from rain, and fading.

-- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:27 -0700, the infamous "Nonny" scrawled the following:

I abhor that crap! It's what we used in the Habitat home and it took about 40 nails per length to make it fit the wall tightly. Crom help the guy who removes it for recarpeting.

Disgusting.

-- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren

[Mark & Juanita]

Nope, not at all. Worst thing about the stuff is that even the lightweight stuff is heavier than real wood. OK, that's not really the

*worst* thing about it, but is one of the bad things.

One of the positives is that it does make reasonably nice looking furniture affordable to people just starting out and with lower incomes. OTOH, it makes it real easy to just change furniture on a whim.

[Mark & Juanita]

As am I. The furniture in question was most assuredly *not* particle board, it was MDF, the grain was very fine compared to particle board. The binder however was lighter as it wasn't evil heavy, just moderately so.

[Picasso]

I have never seen this cardboard trim.. what are you talking about

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:06:20 -0300, the infamous Picasso scrawled the following:

It's made of pressboard, like a soft, very low-grade hardboard. If you bend it, it comes apart like cardboard delaminating. I think some of the manufacturers are calling it "ultralight MDF", but it's nothing at all like wood or termite barf (MDF.) It's cheap, like $3 a stick, and flimsy, and horrible to work with.

I simply cannot find a picture of this crap on the Web.

-- It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin

[LDosser]

You owe me a monitor!

LMAO!!