Drawer side stock?

Page 2 of 3  
On 1/20/2013 10:53 PM, Swingman wrote:

Having been trying to learn something, I've observed that Swingman's models for cabinetmaking feature more fine-woodworking integrity than comparable projects in magazines, where projects may be "dumbed-down" for the sake of creating entertaining media, perhaps. I hope you keep preachin' Swingman (and others)!
Bill
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/21/2013 9:39 AM, Bill wrote:

Thanks for the kind words, Bill. Granted, some jobs require a measure of uncompromising assholery to get things done, mainly because you're dealing with other peoples money and dreams and, for whatever reasons, they've already realized they can't get the job done themselves ... and most would agree some of us are well suited to that task, and that that attitude tends to spill over to other areas.
That said, and when someone asks a question, and I feel like I can give a reply based on relevant experience, I will ... and at the same I will also endeavor to _show_, using whatever technology at hand, why I feel my reply may address the question/concern.
I'm well aware that that rubs some folks here the wrong way, probably because their own insecurity makes them feel it's akin to "tootin' your own horn". Fuck'em.
I will continue to "preach", as you say ... and couldn't give a rat's ass less about them, or what they feel or think ... there's always the killfile to allow them to feel better about themselves if that's what it takes.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:53:16 -0600, Swingman wrote:

You heard my excuse - what's yours?
There's nothing wrong with suggesting commercial solutions in this group - we all learn that way. But turning up your nose at fitted drawers is just reverse snobbery.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/22/2013 11:13 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

>

Instead of getting all disingenuous and defensive about your already self admitted "snippy" behavior, how about simply answering the question you got all "snippy" about regarding drawers intended for a kitchen:
On 1/18/2013 1:49 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:17:15 -0600, Swingman wrote: >> I meant to add that you will certainly want to consider, >> before you make a decision about your drawer side thickness, >> the type of drawer slides you will be using. > > Unless the drawers are to handle heavy loads, I see no need for any > drawer slides at all. A traditionally fitted drawer is much better.
Better for what?
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/13 1:49 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

gross.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/17/2013 7:06 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:

local Menards. Drawer size is approximately 18" square. ...
I personally prefer the thinner drawer sides aesthetically plus if one is using a side-mount slide one loses an inch of opening for the typical and 3/4" stock costs another 1-1/2" -- that's a lot of space to give up unless there's just unlimited room available.
I generally use either oak or soft maple to be stiff/strong enough and go no more than 1/2"--often even 3/8" for smaller drawers. Even a deep file drawer in oak is plenty stout enough w/ 1/2".
I also will round over the tops--I don't like the square edges.
Hadn't thought of the wide rabbet for the tray--that does handle the visual problem nicely but not the total width loss. If I'm going to do that I'll make a dado and inset a ledger strip and keep the same total thickness.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thank for your earlier post about using whatever stock "fits", budgetwise, etc.
What are your thoughts on bottom vs. side-mount slides, in general?
At the risk of hijacking this thread, do you have a source that you like for slides? I'll only need 5 sets for my kitchen.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/2013 12:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Not sure that was me, but can't disagree w/ the point...

Bottom has the aesthetics; see my reply to Karl regarding the dimensions. They take a fair amount of depth which may (or may not) be less of an issue than width as far as usability/loss of room.

There's hardly anywhere better for cabinet hardware than Woodworker's Hardware
<www.wwhardware.com>
--



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You are right...it was Swingman's post I was referring to.
Thanks for the link.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/2013 3:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Check out KV's MuV (Knape & Vogt) premium undermount drawer slides.
Very nice slide, smooth as silk action, and I've found they perform equally with any of Blum's comparable slides at a better price, and they are easier to install.
I've used the MuV's in three full blown kitchens and one remodel now, and I like them better then my old favorites that I used for years, Hettich slides ... the MuV's are much less fussy to install, and a good bit more forgiving with regard to fit.
The Hettich's are excellent slides, but are bears for requiring an absolute perfect fit.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Check your math. That "costs another 1 1/2" above is only operative if you're using no drawer sides at all. ;)
With today's undermount drawer slides it's even less. You rarely see a modern kitchen with sidemount drawer slides these days, particularly with the dovetail drawers that many around here are going to shoot for.
--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/2013 1:48 PM, Swingman wrote:

Yes, obviously that's the total out of the drawer opening, not the difference. That's still quite a lot to sacrifice in smaller kitches. Still a half-inch in a 12 inch drawer is noticeable and when added up over more than one...

The tradeoff there is the depth, though. There's no free lunch... :)
I replaced a set of the old single undermount roller w/ the front side rollers w/ a centermount slide type that is also able to fit in the 3/8" bottom lip thickness as a trial here. It's pretty good excepting for the 3/4 length pullout. I'm looking at the possibility of using an overlong slide for the drawer to get extra extension but haven't gotten around to actually doing it.
I've not done a new kitchen in over 20 yr where the sizes are so huge any more--even in the old houses in Lynchburg often kitchens were very small comparatively (many of them actually had the "real" kitchen in the basement or an outbuilding for the staff rather than being in the house as a full-fledged kitchen as we know it today so they had to be scavenged room taken from other adjoining areas which generally meant they were also small. The kitchen in the old farm house here which was an add-on in the 20s to the house built in the early/mid-teens has only about six feet of _total_ counter length and that includes that 4-ft of it is around a 90 that has a lazy susan in it for storage. There si space for only three drawers along the counter top row so even a half inch is a loss.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/2013 3:08 PM, dpb wrote:

:) Well, that's what you would think ... but, that is not necessarily the case when it comes to modern drawer slides, as non-intuitive as it sounds.
With the undermounts I've been using lately (KV MuV), you actually deduct less from the width of cabinet opening, _the thicker the side material_.
IOW, you actually make your drawers wider with thicker material. Here is chart from the manufacturer that I use in my spreadsheets for dimensioning drawer widths for the kitchens we've been building lately:
Drawer Width DwrThickness DeductfromCabOpening 5/8" (16mm)    3/8" (10mm) 9/16" (14mm)    9/16" (14mm) 1/2" (13mm)    5/8" (16mm)
Max Drawer Height = Opening Minus 13/16" (20mm)            
Note that that's total, NOT per side, and it illustrates that things are no longer as they used to be with modern slides (IOW, no longer the blanket 1" as with the sidemount you mentioned).
In effect, that means you can make your drawers wider and gain/offset interior width with thicker drawer sides than previously possible with the older style slides.
And, as you said yourself: "when added up over more than one..." :)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I replaced the drawers in my vintage built-in kitchen cabinets with solid wood drawers that I put together with hand cut dovetails. I didn't use drawer slides... rather I fit them to the casework like I would drawers in a fine piece of furniture. It is the same approach Frank Klauz presents on his dovetail DVD.
Because each drawer was built to properly fit the opening they slide in and out just fine on a coat of paste wax. Old school perhaps but they work with the kitchen and they function well. Also, to use slides I would have had to build structure in the cabinet to which slides could be mounted--that would have been an annoying venture.
John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/18/2013 5:13 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I bet they are beautiful and work wonderfully as you described.
Rest assured I certainly appreciate what you accomplished and I can, and will do exactly that for a client, if that is really what they want ... for that is name of the game, and the keys to the kingdom.
Reality however, is that most will head to Ikea quicker than you can drop you're hat when they find out they won't get their self closing drawers, soft close pullout pantries, toekick drawers, custom pot pullouts, lazy Susan corner cabinet inserts, and drawer dishwasher cabinets ...
... that is, if they don't choke on today's labor costs of your above beforehand. :)
All that notwithstanding, my hat's off to you. Got some photos? ... I would genuinely love to see it. :)
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No photos at this point... the kitchen is still in process in that I've been stripping the frames and cabinet fronts so I can repaint the whole thing. Some minor repairs have been made to the frames and I also made a couple new cabinet doors. Quite frankly, it is in a state that it looks like Hell! LOL As my "whole house" renovation progresses the kitchen will be ripped out and reoriented. It will take me at least another 3-4-5 years to get to that point and I couldn't bear to live with the poorly functioning and damaged things that were there.
I understand the labor cost thing. I'm proficient at cutting the dovetails by hand and in fact do not own any kind of router jig to do so. If I were making a living at this and had 10, 20 or more drawers to do it would likely be a different story. In my case the materials used were all left overs from other projects so the drawers cost me next to nothing in terms of money.
I must say that the new drawers fit much better than the originals. The originals were undersized and would rack and droop so they did not slide smoothly. For a few hours work with left over materials it was one of those "good deal" projects.
John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:13:33 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"

Bravo! I had the pleasure and honor of attending some of Frank's seminars and to work with (for) him at a WW show years back. Great guy. Best dovies in the world, too.

Mine are cheaper plywood drawers, but they're on wax, too. With he exception of the tool drawer, they all slide easily when waxed a couple/three times a year. I make sure to -declutter- them on those days, so it's really A Good Thing(tm).

That would have been a PITA.
-- The problem with borrowing money from China is that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again. --Steve Bridges as Obama
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I met Frank a while back too. A show somewhere in PA as I recall. He was messing around with a European combination machine.
A couple years ago I gave lectures at the Northeastern Woodworkers Associations show in Saratoga Springs, NY where I cut dovetails much like Frank does... but I used all the "wrong" tools. I used a 12 pt. 22" cross cut panel saw, a marking gauge, pencil, 1/2" Marples carpenter's chisel, and a hammer. No dovetail saw, no bevel gauge, no ruler, no mallet...
The whole focus was on process and how to visually tell if you were cutting straight, which side of the line was waste, etc. Quite frankly I thought I lost the attendees as I was going through it in real time... the room got really quiet. I was relieved when I put the joint together as it went together with no messing around and no gaps... the group broke out in applause as they could see on the monitor, when the camera zoomed in tight on the joint, that it was a nice clean fit. I joked around a bit about how you don’t need mirrors, a million lines, landing lights off a 747, variable pitch dovetail saws, layout gizmos or things to hold the saw... keep a few basic things in mind and it works.
Speaking of the NWA Showcase, it's coming up on March 23-24. This year it was requested that I talk about woodworking with youth. This as my sons have been regular winners at the show since they were about 6 and 8 years of age. Doug Stowe and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to this and I ran a few things by him for his opinion. He has met my sons and over the years posted photos of them at work on his blog "Wisdom of the Hands." After that exchange I agreed to do the program.
John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:58:52 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"

saw, so I use my ryoba, Marples blue chips, and my Fox urethane mallet. Love them all dearly, but I don't do many dovies.

Cool. Congrats, and have fun!
-- The problem with borrowing money from China is that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again. --Steve Bridges as Obama
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
John Grossbohlin wrote:

I applaud your work and am not trying to rain on your parade; however, your drawers *ALSO* need an internal structure upon which they slide.
--

dadiOH
____________________________
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Site Timeline

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.