David Marks and Loose Tenons

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On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:20:28 -0500, the inscrutable Patriarch

Tenons got 'lektricity now? Well I'll be.
P.S: Clams got legs!
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Right after kickback safety and sawstops.
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-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
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"John" wrote in message

In case there is any doubt in most of you newbie's minds about whether Mike Hide knows of what he speaks, there is NO doubt that most of you are not even worthy of carrying the man's sandpaper.
Take a look, weep, and be humbled in the presence of someone who _really_ does know what he is talking about.
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
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Mike
Thanks for the kind words, at times like this it is good to have a bribable brother who does not have the same last name ...mjh
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No. The idea is to get the shoulders of the tenon to register against the face of the mortised board and keep them there.
When you don't have clamps, or the clamps would be too large, as in house framing, you draw bore.
You really need to learn some woodworking, and it will involve some thinking.
If you drive a round peg into an undersized round hole it will split the piece. Force is applied evenly around the peg, finds the weakest place - along the grain - to gain room. With a traditional square or whittled peg, the force on the edges pushes fibers aside or even severs them to make room without splitting.
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edge,
peg,
room
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edge,
peg,
room
It is even better if the square pin is the same width as the hole diameter then there is no chance of splitting. I have chairs made in the 1730s that have pegged tenons and they are as tight now as the day they were made .the offset between the motice and tenon hole is about 1/32" to 1/16"...mjh
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stoutman wrote:

Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon joinery.
1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can be their actual length NOT their actual length PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to make a mistake
2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon width and planed to the needed thickness you can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed rail.
3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the tenon really strong - try ebony!
Here's a great example of why loose tenons.. http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5276/shop/page26.html
charlie b
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On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:11 -0700, the inscrutable charlie b

Yeah, and two fewer chances, too. <gd&r>

Ayup, and you can't just make the bed a bit shorter. Mattresses and box springs don't squish much in length. ;)

Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.
- The only reason I would take up exercising is || http://diversify.com so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites
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I've noticed that David Marks always seems to use the same wood for the tenons as the pieces he's joining. I wondered if that was the reason why, or if it was just because there was usually plenty of scrap available. But why else use something expensive for the tenons since they don't show? Is there another reason or is it for stability?
(He also always veneers both sides of his base stock, and has explicitly said that's for stability, but often uses a different (nice, but cheaper) wood for the side that doesn't show.)

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John

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John Santos wrote: ...

... I would expect he does it for all the above reasons. It certainly is "safer" to use the same material from the standpoint of reliability. The amount of material used is insignificant in terms of saved cost. Plus, he may (probably is?) like many of the rest of us--whether it shows to anybody else or not isn't material--<he> knows what the interior is.
A similar case is wiring inside a wall--many make it as neat as they can "just because" even though it all gets covered over and the electrons don't care...
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<snip>

And another thread devolves into an electrical wiring discussion... ;-)
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Patriarch wrote:

Oh, you're now saying the electrons <do> care??? :)
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On Fri, 27 May 2005 10:29:10 GMT, the inscrutable John Santos
I said:

Stability, but there's always scrap which can be used from each project. By using the same wood in the same grain direction, he keeps from having any trouble with different expansion rates. His loose tenons don't explode the wood they're in during the humid seasons.

Right. It lessens cupping.
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I googled a little and was able to answer my own question. oops.
http://www.djmarks.com/stories/djm/Loose_Tenon_Joinery_90627.asp
I think he has convinced me to try loose m&t's on my next project.

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spake:

I've seen only one real tenon in the past two years of his shows. Don't ask which project. I don't recall.

Easier.
Soooo, do your projects get done in under half an hour, too? (Ah dinna thin so.)
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I don't know which type is better, but I PREFER to make loose tenons. It seems less "fussy" to me.
Dave
stoutman wrote:

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I just saw one of his shows today where he used a regular M&T joint. I would imagine that the reason he doesn't use them more often is time. Loose tennons are much faster. That's all I use.

a
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You just recently started watching. He does loose tenons with a plunge router quite regularly, when it makes more sense. The three axis motion of the Multirouter is fine when the pieces fit the tables well enough, but if the project gets large, the value is reduced.
Some of the benches and tables, where he cuts the joinery in solid stock, then shapes to curves, are much easier to do with the plunge router than with the Multirouter.
DJM seems to look for projects to show how various tools and processes are used, as though the process shown is at least as important as the finished product. That's one of the reasons I watch him.
Norm's good, too.
BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a little bit. That's another style of show I like. Norm has done a few of these, and Roy does them several times a season.
Find a project to try the loose tenons. You'll be pleased.
Patriarch
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"Patriarch" wrote in message

I was running through erasing duplicates, got distracted and erased that particular show before I even got to see it. (I guess really do _need_ one more shop tool - a dvd recorder to hook up to my cable set top box.)
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