"J&KCopeland" wrote in news:_Y_je.250$ snipped-for-privacy@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com:
Works as advertised. You sometimes have to heat up the tenon stock to shrink it to fit because it absorbs a little moisture. And put the drill in the hole a few times to make a nice clean hole...
ken
If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to hold a M&T joint together without the use of glue CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG AND CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON
Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get your attention. By chamfering the end of the peg and the the hole they'll self align Rather than SPLITTING! DAMHKT.
I used draw pegs on the M&T joints on the base drawer unit to legs joints just in case I ever need to dismantle this beast for any reason. Nice to have reversible joinery - sliding dovetails are also neat to use - just in case.
charlie b
dont be confused ,loose tenons are what you make when you cannot make the right ones.Tenon are intended to be as tight as you can get them .in the good old days you would have been out the door if you made loose tenons ...mjh
On Sun 22 May 2005 04:42:08p, charlie b wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@accesscom.com:
Ow.
S'okay. Just wasn't expecting it, that's all.
I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the hole. Thank you. :-)
:-)
What a load.
Biscuits construction isn't as stout as M&T; just quicker. I use both, depending on what I want to achieve.
Dave
mrcomp_ca wrote:
You aren't serious, are you Mike?
"As tight as you can get them" isn't the correct way to size a M&T joint, but I'm betting you already know that...
Dave
mike hide wrote:
I meant exactly what I said.
In the past ,and I have furniture to prove it Mand T joints had no glue ,they were secured by pegs anything but a perfect fit would ensure the structure would "rock" and secondly would soon fail...mjh
We're talking Fuji apples vs McIntosh apples.
M&T, when glued, need to be less than "as tight as you can get them".
NOW I find out you were talking pegged...
Dav
mike hide wrote:
Were they drawn together by offset holes for the pegs? I have furniture done with that technique that's never moved or had to be yet adjusted. They built barns and ships that way. The M& T are snug, but not dead tight, just drawn tight.
"mike hide" wrote in news:pKGdnYpg84 snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
Mike,
Were you criticizing integral tenons, improperly fitted?
Because I was thinking we were discussing what is sometimes called a 'floating tenon'.
I'm loathe to have an argument where there is no disagreement. ;-) Those I can find at home.
Patriarch
If you double draw pegged them they wouldn't
charlie b
Nope, you just need to think of how the M&T joint works. In load direction, the tenon takes the force. At right angles to load, the shoulders resist movement when they register against the other piece - thus the pegs or draw boring, which substitutes for a clamp in assembly. The glue may be omitted or may crumble, leaving the joint mechanically sound.
If you want to know what happens to unshouldered tenons, look at the loose rungs on any chair.
You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than wedge against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.
Tenons are subject to two loading conditions and hopefully not three . The third a longitudinal load ,would call for a dovetail joint as opposed to a modern mortice and tenon.[non pegged]. A pegged tenon would even take some longitudinal load .
An unpegged tenon basically is subject to bending and shear loads . The shear load is applied at 90 degrees to the tenons length, thus the load will crush the glue film [which has thickness with a sloppy tenon /mortice.fit] between the bottom of the tenon and the bottom mortice surface until the shear load is resisted . this will result in a compression in the lower glue thickness and a tension in the upper one with commensurate strains [movement].
The second loading is due to the moment the load causes . This load results in a point loading of the lower outer edge of the mortice and the upper inner edge of the mortice . The former results in even more deformation of the glue layer [in addition to that resulting from the shear load ] and a reverse deformation at the upper inside of the tenon/mortice .
This loading condition occurs whether the tenon is pegged or not. The pegged haunched tenon does somewhat better as the effctively the peg keeps the tenon "engaged" and tight allowing the haunch to spread the bending loads..
The bottom line is in the case of a tight fitting mortice and tenon the glue joint thicknesses are mininized resulting in the basic wood taking the loads directly rather than allowing the loads to be transferred through the glue thicknesses for which it is ill suited to do . Wood to wood contact results in less flexure and longer joint life .
having a sloppy joint is akin the having a poor edge to edge joint and hoping in the poorly fitting sactions that the glue will take the load ,we all know how that works ....mjh
I never said to make a "sloppy joint". But "as tight as you can make them"? I take that to mean you'd make a glued M&T so tight you have to "persuade" it together. If by "as tight.." you meant, PROPERLY snug, then we are in agreement.
Dave
mike hide wrote:
A tight joint in my book is as perfect a fit as one can get, that is not a force fit..
A loose tenon in my book is a sloppy or ill fitting joint and that is what this thread is about isn't it? obviously CW and David disagree....mjh
Excuse the interruption, but a "loose" tenon only means that the tenon is a separate piece of wood.
It's a square dowel that can be as wide or long as necessary.
No, actually, it isn't. It was a discussion of the loose tenon method of joinery employed by David Marks. Loose tenon, as in two mortises and a separate tenon glued into each. I suspect that you're not so completely dense as to have missed that and are just being your usual obtuse self.
And rightly so. You're the one who's screwed up
"mike hide" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
Loose tenons and floating tenons are often used as synonymns, hence some of the confusion.
For example:
Patriarch
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