Nope - it's about an end grain to edge grain mortise and tenon joint that puts a mortise in both parts and then a separate piece of wood to go into those mortises.. "Loose' menas that the tenon is not part of either piece to be joined together..
charlie b
Since we're talking about a 1/32 - 1/16th offset between the hole in the mortised piece and the hole in the tenon, and the the tenon may be 1/2" thick, I don't think a wooden "nail" cut end or not, will "cut" that much wood. And if it could, if it's a through peg, it'd also "cut" the other side of the mortise as well?
I suggested chamfering both the peg and the tenon's hole to make drawing the joint easier - remember, we're talking about a draw peg M&T joint and I had a through draw pegged joint in mind. I made the chamferring the hole suggestions based on splitting the end of a walnut peg in a draw peg M&T joint on my work bench base unit. Of course the tenons were 3/4" thick maple and the mortise was in a 3x3 spruce leg - not your typical M&T joint.
More info please as to peg cutting cross grain.
charlie b
Being my usual Obtuse self, I read the original post by Stoutman, perhaps you should also . There is no mention of the method of constuction, just that they are loose tenons
.Even though I have never seen David Mark's program let alone ever heard of him . So what would a brilliant person like yourself by name a loose tenon might be ? surely not a lousy fitting tenon.....mjh
The one whose subject is "David Marks and Loose Tenons" as can clearly be seen in the subject line of this post as well as the others to which you've responded? I read it.
Then what earthly reason is there for you to insert yourself in a thread in which fully half of the subject concerns David Marks and the other half a process with which you are clearly unknowledgable?
You're as bad as toller giving electrical advice.
Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square edge, breaks fiber to make passage.
David Marks calls them 'Loose Tenon'. As does Gary Rogowski in his book JOINERY.
Again read the first post in this thread by Stoutman ,not the one you choose to suit your purposes.
I was not concerned with the author but with the subject, loose tenons. I assure you I do know what a tenon is and exactly what a loose tenon is by general woodworking standards.
Your assumption that I am unknowledgable about " Loose Tenons" as defined by Marks has absolutely no basis ,you have no idea what I do or not know.
As a matter of fact you would appear to be a nasty little know-it-all yourself., Being that it is surprizing you bother with mister Marks or the subject matter as it all has to be old hat to you.....mjh
On Mon 23 May 2005 05:18:59p, "George" wrote in news:429256ca$1 snipped-for-privacy@newspeer2.tds.net:
Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.
Mike may not know (probably) what a "loose" tenon is, but he sure knows how to back pedal.
On Mon 23 May 2005 08:37:15p, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (John) wrote in news:17300- snipped-for-privacy@storefull-3275.bay.webtv.net:
Hm? Oh. I think you're looking for the Loose Tenon Definition subthread further down. This is the Drawbored Tenon subthread, which has degraded to the Square Pins vs Chamfered Pins in Drawbored Tenons subthread. Sorry.
To every one who made a comment here tonight on M&T, thank you from someone who is trying to learn somethin, Glad to see none of that@$&^%(*@ stuff back and forth. This is enjoyable reading. Looking forward to more and again thank you all
Accidently sent this to Mike instead of here. So -this is sort of like trying to hold a conversation with a 10 hour delay between parties. Hopefully the diagrams that show the six degrees of freedom of movement which must be resisted and which parts of the M&T joint resists which movement.
This may clarify things a little - showing the six (yup - six) degrees of freedom of movement that need to be fixed if two pieces of wood are to be joined together and not come apart. A mortise and tenon joint resists 5 of the six.
It seems "spit tight" is what to shoot for. The tenon should fit snug enough to go in and out with just moderate hand pressure - no dead blow hammer, no mallet whacking etc.. But if you spit on the tenon and then seat it, it should swell enough to make getting the joint apart difficult.
And tight also means leaving some place for a) glue inside to go (mortise a little deeper than the tenon is long) and b) some place for compressing the air trapped in front of the tenon as it seats or someway for it to get out of the joint.
The beauty of "traditional joinery" is that it lets you dry fit things and the parts will a)self align and b) be self supporting. That's real handy if you make things "on the fly" - make step 1, make parts for step 2 to fit what you have in step 1 and so on. Has the advantage of letting you see things at full scale each step of the way.
If you've ever worked from a "plan" and cut all your parts BEFORE putting them together you know that somewhere amongst all the given dimensions there's at least one that's wrong. Working progressively you can get dimensions off what you have. It isn't important that a part be 22 31/32nds but rather that if fit between the parts it's suppose to fit between.
I can "take the line", "split the line" and "leave the line" more often than I can read a tape properly ; ) (ok - tell me you've never made a part an inch short)
charlie b
Dan wrote in news:Xns965FD9780EAB9s2scharternet@69.28.186.121:
When do we degrade to wiring for 220? ;-)
"charlie b" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@accesscom.com...
This is where all of the discussion here about wood swelling with moisture etc., goes a little astray. First off - yes it does swell with moisture, I am aware. But... look at the myriad of jointery around you that has survived decades or longer without suffering the expansion problems that are talked about here so frequently and ask yourself what is wrong with this picture that there is so much discussion about 1/8" of movment across grain, or 8% humidity, etc. but there are so few broken joints in the furniture around you. We get so focused on one aspect of things that we sometimes overlook everything else. Sure, moisture causes swelling - to exposed and uncontrolled wood. Wood that is secured as a tenon in a mortice does not absorb moisture in the same way that unsecured wood does. The rates that we see published for wood expansion and moisture absorbtion are for raw, unsecured wood. They do not apply to sealed wood and they do not apply to wood that is secured as in a mortice and tenon. The mortice acts to keep the tenon compressed such that it can only absorb a certain amount of moisture, therefore a very controlled amount of expansion. Throw it under water if you want, but unless the glue disolves, the joint is not going to fail due to moisture absorbtion until the entire asssembly absorbs enough water to distort the whole piece. That would be far more than you'd ever see in environmental changes. Joined pieces of wood (with such interactive techniques as mortice and tenon) are simply not the same as raw wood and do not behave the way wood charts would imply for moisture absorbtion. Once again - look around at how few joints you can see that have actually failed, and then look to see why they failed. Most did not fail due to the joint being too tight and not allowing for moisture absorbtion.
That does indeed make for a nice, precision fit, but it would not be correct to suggest that a dead blow tight fit is somehow less strong or long lived. I have put many joints together that took some pretty good persuasion to fit, and years and years later, they are still there, just as they were when the project was built. I have to admit, when I have to resort to a little persuasion, it's generally because I'm rushing it along in some way and simply did not want to spend any more time to make it that little bit more perfect - but - the joint does not fail.
I agree but I generally find that all jointery has that required amount of slop just by the nature of the woodworking and the material at hand.
Now that's a man that's talking some good stuff!
All right Charlie - you've been looking over my shoulder, haven't you?
No. The idea is to get the shoulders of the tenon to register against the face of the mortised board and keep them there.
When you don't have clamps, or the clamps would be too large, as in house framing, you draw bore.
You really need to learn some woodworking, and it will involve some thinking.
If you drive a round peg into an undersized round hole it will split the piece. Force is applied evenly around the peg, finds the weakest place - along the grain - to gain room. With a traditional square or whittled peg, the force on the edges pushes fibers aside or even severs them to make room without splitting.
The rates that we
You are incorrect. The fibers will expand and contract when the moisture gets to them, and at the same rate, less compression set. You may slow the arrival with occlusive finishes, but wood loves water and will find a way.
The reason M/T joints work loose is related to this reality. What went together "spit tight" at 12% MC is less so at 8 or 4. The joint may then be subject to racking strain, compressing some contact areas which will make the joint sloppy even when the MC returns to 12%. That's why the glue and pegs - to deny motion even when the tenon tries to become smaller in the mortise.
Works the other way, too, though more slowly. Joints made at 4%, if the don't split the wood getting to 12, begin to develop some compression set which remains after the cycle returns to 4, progressively loosening the joint.
Glue or surface fiber will eventually succumb, but the M/T will still bear load in design direction, and if pegged, should not withdraw.
Is this the post to which you refer?:
: I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
: Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of? Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to make?
: I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him. Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
: Confused... I read it...again.
Well, there it is. The subject says loose tenons, the first paragraph says loose tenons. The second paragraph says loose tenons. The third paragraph says loose tenons. It seems pretty clear that the subject was loose tenons. Not the fit of conventional, integral mortise and tenons, but loose tenons as a joinery technique. By general woodworking standards.
A huge clue that it was indeed a loose (or floating, as someone else called it) tenon thread was the mention (twice) of the multi router.
Your words say otherwise. For example, you said you don't even know who Marks is ("[e]ven though I have never seen David Mark's program let alone ever heard of him"). Therefore, one can only conclude that you are unknowledgable about loose tenons as defined by Marks, by definition.
And that's what the subject was and you were off the subject. Even David and CW thought so.
Ah, ad hominem attack. That'll prove your case
On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:20:28 -0500, the inscrutable Patriarch spake:
Tenons got 'lektricity now? Well I'll be.
P.S: Clams got legs!
- The only reason I would take up exercising is ||
Joinery That Held Together for Thousands of Years vs A / C
I grew up in the tropics, the place formerly known as the Panama Canal Zone (sounds sort of like the artist formerly known as Prince), where the temperature ranged from maybe 78 degrees up to perhaps 94 degrees. The humidity stayed in the 90 to 100 percent range because the Isthmus is only 50 miles wide with a lot of water on both sides (we only had two seasons, Dry Season and Rainy Seasno. .Dry Season usually was on a Thursday).
I grew up with solid wood, (teak, mahogany, rosewood, cedar etc.) often carved, furniture from India and China
- all done with traditional joinery, and some quite complicated and all done with hand tools. Even the delicate stuff hung together well UNTIL air conditioning became available. Within 2 years the joinery started opening up on the more delicate stuff and a drop lid desk with drawers had the lid warp and split, stretches get loose, drawers get loose etc. The range of change in relative humidity and the resulting change in % MC was just too great for the joinery, given that it was probably made with a %MC of 14 - 18 and in an A/C environment was probably down to 4%.
For some reason, some of the Chinese furniture, the ones with triple mitered corners, frame and panel with mitered frames held up despite the AC.
So, I'm guessing that it's not wood expansion that I need to accomodate, but rather wood shrinkage - at least for "house furniture" (as opposed to "just shop furniture"). Guess I'll shoot for Spit Tight rather than Snug or CTSBTF (Cut To Size, Beat To Fit).
Oh, BTW - if you're going to use half blind dovetails for a wall hanging tool cabinet, DO NOT put the pins on the sides and the tails on the top and bottom - especially not the bottom! Nails, even finishing nails, detract from the dovetails - just a little bit.
Interesting discussion.
charlie b
In case there is any doubt in most of you newbie's minds about whether Mike Hide knows of what he speaks, there is NO doubt that most of you are not even worthy of carrying the man's sandpaper.
Take a look, weep, and be humbled in the presence of someone who _really_ does know what he is talking about.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.