David Marks and Loose Tenons

[stoutman]

This has probably been asked before, but...

I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.

Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of? Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to make?

I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him. Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.

Confused...

[briansgooglegroupemail]

Loose tenons are just a different way of doing it. I'm not sure why he does it that way so often, but in situations were you have ALOT of them to do, the router method can make quick work of it. I use a simple homemade jig for my loose tenon mortises. You don't need a multirouter. But when I only have a couple to do, I usually do integral tenons on the bandsaw.

[Phillip Hallam-Baker]

Actually I am sure I saw Marks use his dado head to do a tenon the other week...

It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped $2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.

The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for cabinet doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.

[charlie b]

Several advantages in most situations to use loose tenon joinery.

1. The parts that would otherwise have tenons can be their actual length NOT their actual length PLUS the tenon lengths Two less chances to make a mistake
2. With a piece of stock ripped to the desired tenon width and planed to the needed thickness you can cut off what you need on a chop saw or cross cut them on the table saw. If you blow it you're not out an entire tenoned part. Think of the wood you'd need if you blew the tenons on a bed rail.
3. You can make the loose tenons out of any wood you want and maybe scrap at that. Want the tenon really strong - try ebony!

Here's a great example of why loose tenons..

charlie b

[stoutman]

I googled a little and was able to answer my own question. oops.

think he has convinced me to try loose m&t's on my next project.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 21 May 2005 21:32:58 GMT, the inscrutable "stoutman" spake:

I've seen only one real tenon in the past two years of his shows. Don't ask which project. I don't recall.

Soooo, do your projects get done in under half an hour, too? (Ah dinna thin so.)

- The only reason I would take up exercising is ||

so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

[David]

I don't know which type is better, but I PREFER to make loose tenons. It seems less "fussy" to me.

Dave

stoutman wrote:

[CW]

I just saw one of his shows today where he used a regular M&T joint. I would imagine that the reason he doesn't use them more often is time. Loose tennons are much faster. That's all I use.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:24:11 -0700, the inscrutable charlie b spake:

Yeah, and two fewer chances, too.

Ayup, and you can't just make the bed a bit shorter. Mattresses and box springs don't squish much in length. ;)

Wouldn't you want the same (or physically similar) wood so they had the same expansion/contraction rates? That's what I've always read.

- The only reason I would take up exercising is ||

so that I could hear heavy breathing again. || Programmed Websites

[briansgooglegroupemail]

cabinet

Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than integral tenons?

[Patriarch]

"stoutman" wrote in news:eONje.40745$ [e-mail]:

You just recently started watching. He does loose tenons with a plunge router quite regularly, when it makes more sense. The three axis motion of the Multirouter is fine when the pieces fit the tables well enough, but if the project gets large, the value is reduced.

Some of the benches and tables, where he cuts the joinery in solid stock, then shapes to curves, are much easier to do with the plunge router than with the Multirouter.

DJM seems to look for projects to show how various tools and processes are used, as though the process shown is at least as important as the finished product. That's one of the reasons I watch him.

Norm's good, too.

BTW, I saw the Krenov/Carpenter Masters show again this evening for a little bit. That's another style of show I like. Norm has done a few of these, and Roy does them several times a season.

Find a project to try the loose tenons. You'll be pleased.

Patriarch

[Swingman]

I was running through erasing duplicates, got distracted and erased that particular show before I even got to see it. (I guess really do _need_ one more shop tool - a dvd recorder to hook up to my cable set top box.)

[J&KCopeland]

This was demonstrated on diynet..

process is no more complicated than creating a dowel joint, (and in fact, the drill jig could be used to create dowel holes if desired.) The secret is that once the jig is clamped to the workpiece, and you drill a set of holes, there is a slide mechanism, that allows the jig to move exactly half the distance between the holes. Sounds complicated, but after watching a demonstration, it is a very simple process.

(shims are provided in the kit, if offset tenons are to be used.)

sells the jig and the necessary router bits to create just about any size, or length of loose tenons, that you would desire or you can buy the tenon stock premade. (The router bits to make the tenon stock cost more that then jig...)

I have NOT bought one of these, yet, and I would certainly appreciate any downside to the system, that I'm not seeing.......

James...

[Dan]

On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, [e-mail] wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half lap joints.

It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do* remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and they couldn't really give a good explanation why.

The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no realworld difference.

And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will ALWAYS fit nice and snug.

And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make a nice-looking through tenon.

[gregg]

I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.

His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.

[mrcomp_ca]

Let me add to the confusion.

Would a biscuit and glue provide the same level of stregnth? I'm adding a bottom shelf to a coffee table and am trying to decide on the joinery for the shelf support. The shelf is 28" square made of makore. I'd like to use biscuit cause it's quick and I already have the tool.

Any thoughts?

[Lobby Dosser]

Thanks for a good read!!

[Dan]

On Sun 22 May 2005 12:20:15p, gregg wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.

For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole about a 16th or so back. Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip of the dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest of the way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull into the mortise.

Am I correct? I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole, then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.

Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things that could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too close to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed it up.

Dan

[gregg]

you're welcome. Thanks for the kind words.

[gregg]

Back towards the shoulder...(just to be sure we are on the same page)

that's how I understand the process.

In this article the guy made a drawbore M&T, and then sawed through it to show you what happens to the pin..it deforms into a very slight U shape. This shape also helps to lock the pin in, according to the woodworker.