David Marks and Loose Tenons

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This has probably been asked before, but...
I recently started watching David Marks on DIY. I have yet to see him cut a "real" tenon. Always loose tenons using a multi router.
Why is this? Is there an advantage to loose tenons that I am unaware of? Does he just like to show off his multi router? Are they just easier to make?
I use to only watch Nahmmy and I have learned 90% of what I know from him. Nahmmy "rarely" made loose tenons.
Confused...
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Loose tenons are just a different way of doing it. I'm not sure why he does it that way so often, but in situations were you have ALOT of them to do, the router method can make quick work of it. I use a simple homemade jig for my loose tenon mortises. You don't need a multirouter. But when I only have a couple to do, I usually do integral tenons on the bandsaw.
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Actually I am sure I saw Marks use his dado head to do a tenon the other week...

of?
to
It appears that they are easier to make if you have already dropped $2700 (plus the price of the router) on the multirouter.
The other advantage is that you do not need a special bit to the tennons on rail and stile doors. For the windows I am making at the moment loose tenons would not provide enough strength, but for cabinet doors where you don't need as much strength and for entry doors where you have a lot of tenon surface area this is is not as big an issue.
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Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

cabinet
Hmmm. What gives you the idea that floating tenons are any weaker than integral tenons?
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On Sat 21 May 2005 10:54:29p, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in

I recall an article in a wood mag that I can't remember, that ran tests on three different styles; mortise & tenon, loose tenon, and - I think - half lap joints.
It was a while ago and I can't remember the tests they used. But I *do* remember their conclusion that the loose tenons took the most abuse, and they couldn't really give a good explanation why.
The half laps failed first, and their final word was that although the loose tenons got the highest marks, they had to put so much stress on both the other styles to make them fail that in their minds there was no realworld difference.
And as others have said, there's other good reasons. You can cut the wood to length without worrying about the tenons. You can set up a nice jig to batch cut mortises in everything. You can make the tenons out of whatever you've got laying around, and you can crank out tenon stock that will ALWAYS fit nice and snug.
And when you've got a three thousand dollar mortise maker, well jeez. The only reason I can think of to use standard tenons is when you want to make a nice-looking through tenon.
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Dan wrote:

I read an article in a recent issue of a woodworking magazine, about a guy who does 16th/17th century woodworking with wet red oak.
His M&T's are loose fit an d done with drawbores. Zero glue. Evidently his opinion is that if you drawbore the M&T, it doesn't matter how tightly they fit and in fact he preferred them a little lose.
--
Saville

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Thanks for a good read!!
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Lobby Dosser wrote:

you're welcome. Thanks for the kind words.
--
Saville

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Yeah, I'd like to give that a try sometime.
For those of you who just joined in (and to make sure Saville and I are on the same page), a drawbore is when you make a M&T joint and then you run a dowel through it - except when you drill the hole you stop as soon as you hit the tenon, take the tenon back out, and then drill the tenon hole about a 16th or so back. Then you put the tenon back in, whittle the tip of the dowel so it'll fit into the offset hole, and whack it in the rest of the way so it pulls the tenon in, and the tenon now has a constant pull into the mortise.
Am I correct? I heard there are also metal pins that are used to line up the holes. Put in the drawbore pin, whack it till it's inside the hole, then follow it with the dowel and when the pin falls out the other side you're done. Sure seems to me that would be just fine without glue.
Of course, never having tried it, I probably don't know all the things that could be done wrong. Like drilling the tenon hole too far back or too close to one edge or something else I can't see till I've already screwed it up.
Dan
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Dan wrote:

Back towards the shoulder...(just to be sure we are on the same page)

that's how I understand the process.

In this article the guy made a drawbore M&T, and then sawed through it to show you what happens to the pin..it deforms into a very slight U shape. This shape also helps to lock the pin in, according to the woodworker.
--
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If you're going to use one or more draw pegs to hold a M&T joint together without the use of glue CHAMFER THE END OF THE PEG AND CHAMFER THE HOLE IN THE TENON
Sorry for yelling but I wanted to get your attention. By chamfering the end of the peg and the the hole they'll self align Rather than SPLITTING! DAMHKT.
I used draw pegs on the M&T joints on the base drawer unit to legs joints just in case I ever need to dismantle this beast for any reason. Nice to have reversible joinery - sliding dovetails are also neat to use - just in case.
charlie b
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Ow.
S'okay. Just wasn't expecting it, that's all.

I figured I'd want a good chamfer on the pin, but never considered the hole. Thank you. :-)

:-)
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You don't. Best is to leave the pins square, so they cut rather than wedge against the face grain. Sam principle as cut ends on a nail.
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George wrote:

Since we're talking about a 1/32 - 1/16th offset between the hole in the mortised piece and the hole in the tenon, and the the tenon may be 1/2" thick, I don't think a wooden "nail" cut end or not, will "cut" that much wood. And if it could, if it's a through peg, it'd also "cut" the other side of the mortise as well?
I suggested chamfering both the peg and the tenon's hole to make drawing the joint easier - remember, we're talking about a draw peg M&T joint and I had a through draw pegged joint in mind. I made the chamferring the hole suggestions based on splitting the end of a walnut peg in a draw peg M&T joint on my work bench base unit. Of course the tenons were 3/4" thick maple and the mortise was in a 3x3 spruce leg - not your typical M&T joint.
More info please as to peg cutting cross grain.
charlie b
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wedge
Principle is well-known. Round peg in round hole splits. Square edge, breaks fiber to make passage.
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Yah but, but, I thought the whole idea was to apply pressure on the mortised board so the whole thing stayed together better. If you deliberately whack the pin in so a piece of it actually breaks off, then you basically got nothing but a pinned mortise, not a drawbored one.
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Mike may not know (probably) what a "loose" tenon is, but he sure knows how to back pedal.
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On Mon 23 May 2005 08:37:15p, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (John) wrote in

Hm? Oh. I think you're looking for the Loose Tenon Definition subthread further down. This is the Drawbored Tenon subthread, which has degraded to the Square Pins vs Chamfered Pins in Drawbored Tenons subthread. Sorry.
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To every one who made a comment here tonight on M&T, thank you from someone who is trying to learn somethin, Glad to see none of that@$&^%(*@ stuff back and forth. This is enjoyable reading. Looking forward to more and again thank you all
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When do we degrade to wiring for 220? ;-)
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