Complexity of dyes in kitchen cabinets

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"should" being the key word there.
You are too nice to your customers. You still want business later...LOL
To elaborate on my comment to Lew...... A quote should already include a percentage for contingencies. A stain change.... a reputation is worth more than those few bucks you can maybe squeeze out of client. Industrial business is a different story.
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"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

--------- $750 for your contractor.
Since I would have to acquaint myself with the job, I'd want $2K as an inspection fee, then could give you an educated guess, but $750 seems a little light, especially since I detest paperwork.
Lew
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Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light boxes be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a fan is added later.
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"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

----------------------- What about the electrical service feeding the fans?
Lew
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Use ceiling scissors to cut a path for the wires later? <g>
Might as well run some cat5 for special effects lighting later.
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On 11/1/2010 12:37 PM, Robatoy wrote:

"Shears", Rob! ferrcrisssakes, you can't charge enough for "scissors"!!
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Admittedly, I've been assuming that before he added another ceiling fan, there was already a plan place for a box in that same position, to service a light. In this case, the wiring would be the same. If not, then the $350 charge makes some sense.
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On 11/01/10 1:42 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

Also had all lighting/fans been purchased? The guy needs to return an existing fixture and pick up a fan, that costs money, in addition to paperwork, time for the client to pick out the fan they want assuming they aren't all the same or worst case a special order style. Too many questions.
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The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
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Then you are talking some where under $175 per light box. The extra ceiling fans include bracing and additional wiring for the fan and light to run separately.
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You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about ADMINISTRATIVE FEES.
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"Robatoy" wrote:
To elaborate on my comment to Lew...... A quote should already include a percentage for contingencies. A stain change.... a reputation is worth more than those few bucks you can maybe squeeze out of client. Industrial business is a different story. ------------------------------- My comments reflect my exposure to the industrial/government markets.
Resi is a different world.
Remember the $700 toilet deat?
Lew
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A customer requested change is not a contingency item. It is an extra.
The OP is requesting a change, we have no idea what is involved in the change, but there is general agreement that a $750 charge for a couple of cabinets worth of changed stain is a "Whatchya talking about, Willis?!" Q&A session with the contractor.
To the OP, please post the contractor's explanation of the seemingly high charge when you get it.
R
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Don't know about the cost of $750 but I can envision a dye change costing extra money. At the very least, it means twice the amount of spray booth and spray gun clean up effort. It might also mean ordering and possibly another trip to the supplier for different dye. Might be the same gun being used for the job, so it would have to be thoroughly cleaned for a different dye. As you said, there's the administrative cost, new paperwork, ecetera.
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Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.
Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.
(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently flexible to cover one of their screwups....)
When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate, teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved. That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my answer will be "no".
To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."
I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.
I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my experience from that time.
Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.
They often times find some kind of ragged shit on sale somewhere, and want me to incorporate that into their work someway.
The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted ceiling.
Let's take a look:
You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the max allowed boxes installed before this fan.
So you need a new circuit.
You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown and pay the new plan review fee.
Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!) filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex, and installs a new J box.
He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down to reach later.
He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker. He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.
He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up. He assembles the fan and hangs it.
He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation. Installation complete.
So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker, and a couple more incidentals.
You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your schedule.
To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is <really> cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.
But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan for $125!"
Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at your numbers? Nope.
You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."
I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the machine in gear and on target. No distractions.
Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."
With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed going to pay for it.
Robert
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I hate top-posting, but hate 1-liners at the end of long posts more.
I can't snip any of it because I think it is the perfect answer.
So, nailshooter, can you do a roof near Schenectady, NY next spring?<g>
Jim

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There ya go. A scared shitless client is a good client.
I like your attitude/methods Robert. Communication is the key.
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On 11/2/2010 4:23 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

From my basic contract:
4. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed to by Change Order in writing by both parties.
4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing, including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.
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CHANGE ORDER COST PLUS Date:
Owner: Street Address City, State Postal Code Contact Telephone
Contractor: Company Address Company Phone
For the Project: Project Address:
The Owner authorizes the Contractor to make the following changes to the above project:
Description:
Attachments:                                                  The following is based on information provided by the contractor.
Contract Sum     Original Contract Amount: $                
Revised Contract Amount Prior to this Change Order: $                
Cost for this Change Order: $                
Multiplied by (Number) Percent = $                
The New Contract Total including this Change Order: $                
Contract Time:
Change in Contract Time for this Change Order: Days    
Date of Substantial Commencement for this Change Order shall be: Date                  
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* SNIP *
Get a cup of coffee... this is a long one.
A couple of thoughts....
All valid points in the post Karl, as are the points preceding. On my master contract (going from memory - not at my own computer) I have another caveat that is somewhere in this neighborhood:
"While this Change Order affects the original scope of work and its cost, it does not affect the Terms and Conditions of the original Contract. All Terms and Conditions of the original Contract, unless otherwise specified within this Change Order will be observed and in effect as agreed to by both parties as if no modifications had been made to the original Contract."
My contract delineates that "The Scope of Work to be Performed" has all the details, including time needed to perform the work. It includes the cost of work to be performed as well as materials needed to perform the work.
When I built anything of substance, I kept a book of finish selections and spelled out where each paint color went, each tile selection, each bit of wallpaper, carpet, wood floor, deck stain, counter tops, etc. This book of finishes became part of the contract by reference to "see finish selections". My paint suppliers are required by me (now they are printed automatically) to write the paint number on each can received to match up with the book. Same with wallpaper, etc. I made a copy for the client, but kept the original with their initials and date under each selection under every selection.
My biggest problem when building a house (only built 5) was the people changing their minds about finishes and colors. (I ran back screaming to commercial my first chance to get away from houses.)
The Terms and Conditions part of my contract specify where to pay, when to pay, and *a lot* of language warning the client that under no circumstances will they screw around with me or our agreement. It has the standard exculpatory language to protect me, but it also sets for that if I have to hire any kind of help for payment, they will pay not only the amount invoiced, but all related fees required to collect including MY time.
(As a sidebar, I have tested this clause. I can recover the amount needed to collect such as attorney's fees, etc. I was not allowed to collect money for my time in that particular case because it wasn't an exorbitant amount and the judge decided that should be part of my cost of doing business.)
I found it necessary to add the "from memory clause" above into my contract as an attorney friend of mine reviewed my contract and told me that would be a good idea since **technically** I had changed the contract without limiting the scope of change.
Think about it.... yes, we agreed to the add on, and its cost. Yes, we agreed it increased the price. We further spelled out the time needed to complete the specified work.
But... did we agree to the same exculpatory language? Did we spell out the exact method and time of payment and what would happen if those tenets weren't observed? In the case of any overlapping work touched on by the contract, was/is it reasonable for the client to assume that the new work would be treated differently in any way other than specified in the contract? Will you have to listen to the dreaded "oh... I didn't understand that... I thought this was separate". Since it is more money, how will it affect the pay schedule? You need to make sure the additional work and additional money are completely protected.
You get the drift.
Over the years I have seen so damn many of my contracting amigos take it in the shorts because they didn't have the legal experience to fight off an unruly client. One of them in particular had trouble with a client that paid the contract amount for work just fine, but since the terms and conditions of payment for the change orders weren't spelled out, the judge chastised him in small claims court for not spelling out the terms of payment. That judge considered the change order (careful to point out this out here; it was an ADD ON, NOT a modification like a paint color change) to be a completely different issue, and a completely different contract. Sadly, one with no teeth for my amigo. The judge told my amigo that he thought the change order resembled an invoice, not a component of a larger contract.
While every attorney will look at any contract and tell you they can break it easily, I haven't had one of mine broken yet. I am diligent, and I have been tested.
But the amount of paper work and contractual expertise we have to have these days to do the smallest thing is amazing to me.
One thing I have found out though; if you have a client that is going to screw you, no amount of paperwork and legal blather will save you. Nothing will. You will get screwed.
All a good contract does is to keep everyone on the same page, remind them of what was agreed to, and to provide reference for how the job is to be handled.
There is an attorney here in town that has something like 14 liens against his home.... and he has another group of judgments as well. He is legendary, and he does well until he has someone like me that files a mechanic's lien against the house BEFORE I start a major remodel, and modify it along the project time line.
When he finds someone like me (he hasn't found me, though!) he is screwed. But there are plenty of guys ready to jump into the briar patch with him.
I still remember when I did 99% of my business on a handshake. Man, does that seem like a eon ago now.
Robert
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wrote:

What did you charge for the handshake? ;)
On of the only times I got screwed was on a handshake. It was pretty weird as I was working as a subcontractor for a guy who had always been my subcontractor and we had never had any sort of problem. I didn't realize that handshakes were directional!
Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?
R
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