Cleaning up an old table saw

Page 4 of 7  
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 22:52:16 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

Well, as a former automotive instructor, mechanic, and service manager I can tell you that diagnosis today is no harder or easier than it was in 1969. It was just a whole lot different. Today's troubleshooting is actually EASIER to teach and learn. Electronics are more or less self diagnosing - and everything is logical. Logic can be taught. Hydraulic computers in early automatics are a whole lot more difficult to diagnose and understand than the digitally controlled electronic transmissions of today. The mechanicals have not changed that much.
When I graduated from high school with a double major in auto mechanics on '69 I could read a scope and understand what it meant to diagnose ignition, fuel, and engine mechanical condition. I could check, repair, and adjust most of the different carburetors in use, and I could tear down and rebuild an engine - from one end to the other - including the required machine-work. Brakes, suspension, steering, alignment, clutches, and transmissions were all part of my everyday work during my apprenticeship. I didn't do much automatic work because it required special tools the boss did not want to invest in - there were a few good tranny shops around that we could farm out that work to and make some money on.
I could do - and did - anything the licenced mechanic in the shop did.
The 16 weeks of trade school that were required for my apprenticeship (I was excused from basic (8 weeks) for having the double major, and my marks) was basically review and a refresher. In 2 1/2 years I finished my apprenticeship
Two years later I was teaching in a local highschool - less than 5 years after graduation - and half a year later teaching in a trade school.
Ten years later, as a service manager at a dealership I had to hire apprentices - and even at that point what was coming out of the secondary schools was definitely an inferior product. The "average" first term apprentice didn't earn his keep. The equipment in the highschool auto shops had not been updated in the ensuing 15 years. Most still even had the same engines in the shop for the students to work on. The shop I was trained in still had the 235 inch Chevy engines and the 1953 Ford chassis, and the SAME Sun scope and distributor machine - and alignment rack.
The highschool I taught in still had the same 1963 Chevy chassis and the same 313 Chrysler V8 engines along with the couple of early seventies import engines we aquired back then (Datsun 510, 2T Toyota, 1600 Ford Kent etc) and the same diagnostic equipment.
Today, at EDSS where I graduated in 1969, the SAME equipment is still there (some of it, anyway - and what is no longer there has not been replaced) It is now "transportation technology" and instead of rebuilding engines, doing alignments, and learning state-of-the-art diagnostics, they are making go-carts and motorized skate boards - the kind of thing i and my friends were doing in our spare time in our early teens. A friend of mine is teaching there, and his hands are tied by the school board and the department of education.
I'm out of the business now - but my kid brother - 5 years younger, is still in the business and by the time he gets an apprentice through the intermediate level they are - if he's lucky - able to handle the work that comes into the shop - but cannot, generally, make a decision on how to tackle something different if their life depended on it. Diagnostics??? Heck - even when the code scanner tells them what is WRONG they cannot reason out what the cause is.
For instance - the scanner reports an intermittent miss, or a low oxygen content in the exhaust, or whatever - they can't figure out if the engine is running too rich or too lean - or why.
A car has a steering pull. They have a hard time figuring out what to do to compensate - the camber is off a half degree on one side. What can they do to the caster on the other side to get rid of the pull? etc.
Those basics were taught to US in high school. And we didn't have the computerized alignment machines that calibrate themselves and print out the measurements with almost absolute precision. Centering a steering wheel today is child's play because you can see in real time what the absolute toe is on each side - while we had to estimate how far off it was, and in each direction - make the adjustment and then remeasure to see if you had it right. The only know to know FOR SURE was to drive the car. Today you can KNOW - FOR SURE that the wheel is centered before it leaves the rack - and you KNOW the vehicle is or is not tracking 100%.
Other than the fact there is a lot more jammed into a lot less space on today's cars and you can't fix them with fence-wire - they are actually EASIER to fix - in most ways, than the cars of the late seventies and early eighties. - and not a whole lot more difficult in many ways than the cars of the sixties.
Some of the apprentices now do all their "schooling" at community colleges before being sprung on the workplace - their theoretical knowlege is about equal to what my graduating class left highschool with - but they have extremely limited hands-on experience in comparison.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:03:44 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

So, the real question is, where do students go today to get a proper education in the trade? Or, as it sounds from your comments, they're basically screwed for the most part when it comes to a practical education.
More and more, I hear this these days. The "old guys" are retiring or dying off and there's no one to replace them. It's no wonder our society is going down the tubes.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:52:47 -0500, Dave wrote:

About 20 years ago, I had the job of interfacing a fancy German computer controlled roll grinding machine to a PC for printing various reports. This was for an aluminum rolling mill. BTW, rolls are seldom straight. All sorts of gentle curves are ground into them depending on the desired end result.
The grinding machine was awesome, and awesomely expensive. I was impressed. I asked the roll shop manager how much better it was than the manual lathes they were using. I was informed (bitterly) that they were actually not quite as good. It was just that all the old machinists were retiring and they couldn't find replacements. Nobody wanted to be a machinist anymore!
I also remember about 40 years ago working on an automated cloth cutting machine for the garment industry. That's a little more complicated than it sounds. For example, some types of cloth have grain, just like wood, and garments need to be cut to take that into account.
Same result. Almost as good as an experienced cutter, but those were in short supply. Since most of the garment industry has moved overseas, the problem has likely become obsolete in the US.
If my senior memory was better, I could probably come up with one or two other examples but you get the idea.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:03:44 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I agree, and feel that it's probably a combination of both.

Ditto here, though I took the auto air conditioning and automatic transmission courses, too. I graduated from UTI in '72. I never taught or managed service centers, though.

UTI courses were short of a year in length. Mine took longer because I wimped out and went home after an emergency appendectomy. I have always regretted that decision. By going easier on myself, I extended my increased my pain level by allowing adhesions to form and be pulled out again and again. <sigh>

Wow, not much time in the workflow! I moved in and out of automotive work as jobs dried up. One Ford dealership, which I really enjoyed, was dissolved/closed.

I saw that from the mechanic's viewpoint. New guys out of school didn't seem to have anywhere near the depth of training or motivation that we had way back in our first years. Few seemed to have been raised with any kind of physics or mechanical knowledge, or the curiosity which I have always enjoyed. Maybe that's the key, curiosity. Kids nowadays are hammered by technology and don't have to search much to find answers to questions. Perhaps it was the added knowledge we gained searching long and hard which made the difference for us.

We never had auto shop in school, so I went to a tech school. They kept pretty much current to industry in equipment levels. I haven't been back to UTI since then, so I don't know if they still do that.

Sad.
DOE and school boards--FEH! I think the only question they ask is "How cheaply can we put together a class which will teach the kids enough to get them hired?" They apparently have no interest in grooming the kids for a career after giving them a fully rounded education. It's as if they absolutely do not care about kids. Ethics-free departments of education, anyone?

Sad.
They'd replace the front tires and then try to figure out why it still pulled. <g>

I didn't have those in school, but got a Hunter A-111 4-wheel computerized alignment system to play with at the body and frame shop in the '80s. They were fun, but you still had to pay close attention to installing the wheel sensors.

As cars got newer (so to speak) more and more of the electronics was routed under the dash. In the body shop, I got to do more than my fair share of dashboard R&R and underdash wiring repair/replacement. Controls weren't always easy to get to. I wonder how those types of jobs are being handled now. It takes a dedicated person to remember all the screw and clip placements on a dash, and remember the exact sequence of dis/reassembly.

As schools get leaner, so do teachers. Larger and larger threads of continuity are being lost each generation. I'm all for progress, but not at the cost of losing important skills and knowledge.
-- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:56:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

That's all well and good --== IF ==-- you're breeding people to perform that sole function. The rest of society will break down around it. :-/
-- Courage and perseverance have a magical talisman, before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into air. -- John Quincy Adams
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/24/2012 1:09 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

In Indianapolis Indiana there are several High Schools in Indianapolis Indiana, where only about 20% of students entering into the high school will graduate from high school.
Where are the parents? Teacher can not punish the kids when they miss behave. Parents who try to punish their kids get pulled into social services.
Isn't our nanny society great.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:58:38 -0500, Keith Nuttle wrote:

But how many of those flunked as opposed to the ones who dropped out?
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Or how many would have flunked had they not dropped out?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:05:45 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

True. Another example of why meaningful numbers are hard to come by.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/13/2012 12:21 PM, Swingman wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

English is my second language, can you please explain more clearly? I really prefer Dutch, but that may be too much to ask ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/13/2012 3:08 PM, Han wrote:

IOW, the idea in the education industry today that having "self esteem" is more important in the current scheme of things than being well educated, personally responsible, and achieving goals through hard work and personal effort.
Often manifested by programs that include lowering testing standards for certain groups, and the practice of rewarding everyone a prize, instead of just those who excel because of an inherent talent and/or hard work (like eliminating Valedictorians from high school graduations) ... just a couple examples of the misguided nonsense of the "self esteem" card being played in education today.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That is reprehensible, IMNSHO. If someone is smart and can learn easily, that doesn't make him/her a good person. Everyone needs to get a chance, and failure is something that should be taught too, if for nothing but a little humility (DAMHIKT). BUT, and this is a big BUT, that doesn't mean that good performance in any discipline or behavior shouldn't be rewarded.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02/13/2012 03:08 PM, Han wrote:

It amazes me how many Americans still need to go back and take "English As A First Language". I know a LOT of people in your position that read, write, and speak English better than most of us Americans do.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/13/2012 4:08 PM, Han wrote:

I worded it so poorly. I forget sometime that these groups are international and sarcasm does not translate well from one language to the other, sometimes not even from American to British.
This was a comment on a previous post about graduating from school.
Self esteem = "having a good opinion of yourself"
Many schools and teachers in America feel that it is more important for the student to have a good opinion of themselves than to know subjects like Math, history, language, etc.
Hence they pass students on to the next grade when they have not learned the subjects in their current grade. (Should have failed and been required to retake the courses.) In these cases even though they graduate from high school or college, the only thing they have when they graduate is that they think highly of themselves but have no knowledge of the subject matter they were suppose to have learned.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I hope that I am right in thinking that that is being reconsidered. We're not doing kids a favor promoting them if they did not master the essence at least of the material taught them. I know there is more reliance on summertime remedial classes, and that some schools do not promote. (it is not always the teacher nor always the kid that is the problem).
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/13/2012 1:47 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

everyone graduates. Stupid or not. No dummy left behind, remember?
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 16:36:05 -0600, Steve Barker

Q: What do you call a guy who leaves med school with a D- grade level?
A: DOCTOR.
-- To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves... We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our best and learn the most in the new situation. Peter McWilliams, Life 101
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 14:47:46 -0500, Keith Nuttle

Unfortunately, that's an entirely falsely manufactured self esteem which will crumble at the slightest touch of reality in the first year after school. And then they're left with absolutely nothing to look forward to but asking people if they would like fries with that...
Except in Han's f'rinstance, where people band together and allow miracles to happen with the brighter kids. They are our salvation.
-- To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves... We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our best and learn the most in the new situation. Peter McWilliams, Life 101
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/13/2012 9:28 AM, Swingman wrote:

Do you remember the day you and I were working in your garage and a cold front blew in at the end of the day. You Iron had condensation all over it before we quit. We had to dry it off and you ended having lite rust.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.