argh, screwup need advice

[Brikp]

OK - Thanks all who have previously responded to my posts as I seek advice on expanding my woodworking skills.

I think I may have made a screw-up. It could be easy to fix or a real pain, causing me to almost start from scratch.

Making a piano bench from mahogany. Everything is cut and glued up and finishing has begun. The bench has storage under the seat. The seat is 1/2" larger than the base on all sides.

My issue will be in attaching the hinges.

Looking at the bench, from the top down, no lid attached it looks like this.... (This is my attempt at ASCII art, use a proportional font like courier to look at it.)

_____ _____ | |___________________________| | | |___________________________ | |_____| |_____| || || || || || || || || || || || || _____ _____ | |___________________________| | | |___________________________ | |_____| |_____|

For the ASCII challenged. The legs are mortised to the sides, the sides have a dado holding a bottom (Like a drawer bottom). The sides mortise into the legs in the middle of the leg. FWIW - I have already applied one coat of BLO. The thing looks really nice.

Now, if I attached a regular old hinge to the back side it will bind on the legs as they protrude ~ 3/8" beyond the back side.

OK, so how do I hinge a lid to the top?

My options:

1) Hinge to the leg tops (would look bad and the screws will probably not hold in the end grain for long) 2) Find some type of offset hinge (Lee valley catalog may have something, but nothing jumped out at me so far) 3) re-do the skirts so they are flush with the outside edge of the legs (I am already in finishing, everything is glued up) 4) Filler strip on the hinge side only (Could look bad and may have holding issues (Remember I already began finishing)) 5) Turn this thing into firewood and go buy a bench (Just kidding)

Thanks in advance!!!

-B

[d]

Without actually looking at a hardware catalog... I would try to find an offset hinge like they use for cabinet doors... (woohoo, a chance for some ascii art)

===========TOP IS HERE=============== O--------------------- \---------| S | I | D E

-David

[Stephen M]

Option 6.

No hinges. Just install some cleats on the underside of the seat so that the seat mates seturely to the bottom.

How much bigger is the seat than the rectangle formed by the outer corners of the legs? The strip idea might be fine of it is well-hidden beneath the overhang of the seat. Holding should not be a problem if you scrape off the finish exposing virgin wood for gluing. If you did the finish once, you can replicate it for the strip.

Option 7.

Modified strip idea... Make a bracket or some type of bump-out to handle the extra 3/8", but do it in an explicit, obvious, orinimental and artistic way (e.g "I meant to do that"). This may require matching ornimental whatevers on the non-hinge side.

-Steve

[Brikp]

Thanks for your fast reply...

Agreed BUT....

===========TOP IS HERE=============== O--------------------- \---X-----| S | I | D E

The length of X in the above drawing will be the issue. It will need to be

3/8"+ wider than the skirt board thickness. I may be able to fabricate something but the thought of starting with a strap hinge or something and beating it into submission doesn't sound like the right way to go for a piece of fine furniture.

-B

[larrybud2002]

Thinking of my piano bench at home, the hingers are on the center rail. The hinges are NOT mortised, so the top stays perhaps 3/16" higher than the base, giving it enough clearance to lift up. There is a rubber pad on each corner of the top and that seems to be where the weight is displaced. Remember, you don't need to open this thing 180 degrees. In fact, most benches have a lit stop attached and the lit only opens perhaps 60 degrees.

But if you can't do that...

What about barrel hinges? They give clearance.

I'm not up on my hardware availablility, but what if you thought of this a different way... What if, instead of the top hinging up, it was more of a swivel?

So looking at your top view diagram, if the piano was to the left of the bench, the swivel point would be in the lower right. Or maybe just a dowel at each corner and the top just lifts off.

[gpdewitt]

You could still hinge the tops of the legs, and have only the hinge barrels showing,and under the lip as well. Mortice the top and the legs. The top will only open slightly less than 90 degrees, but it's sufficient. As to the grain problem, you could route or drill a pocket or hole in the tops of the legs to glue in a cross grain insert. Some people do this when screwing to MDF, works great. BTW, I grew up with a concert pianist, and every few years we were fixing the bench, as there are a lot of lateral forces applied when the user slides onto and off the bench. I hope you have tight MT joints!

[Doug Miller]

Actually, Courier is a *non* proportional font... but that's OK. I knew what you meant. :-)

How about a couple of pins on the legs

--------- --------- | |== ==| | | | | | | |------------------------------| | | | | | |_______|------------------------------|________|

and a couple of brackets like so _____ | | \ O / \___/ on the underside of the lid, to fit over the pins and provide the hinge?

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Brikp]

[Brikp]

Yes, the antique original was done that way and I was planning the same. I already have the rubber pads. I still do not think that will give me enough clearance to open it more than about 30 degrees. 30 degrees is a guess, I may have to try and see. I was hoping for 90 Deg or even 100-110. I would thing the swivel would be difficult and require some very heavy hardware to properly support it. I am thinking about the lift off option as others have suggested it as well.

Thanks for your reply...

[Brikp]

Thanks for your reply! So, hinge on top of the legs, out in a cross grain type insert. That could work. Or just really long screws?

As for construction - I have only ever built a few pieces with M&T joints. Mine are pretty tight, glued and clamped. They seem solid, they look good (no gaps or defects visible). They are 3/8 wide, ~2" long and about 1" deep. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

[Brikp]

Thanx for your reply!

You're right about courier, I did mean non-proportional. (I did spell ASCII correctly so I do deserve some credit)

As for the pin hinge. I do not think I will have enough room to do as you describe.

That gives me a different idea though, similar to yours.

I'm wondering outloud if I could attach a filler strip to the bottom of the lid.

More ASCII art. Side view...

___________________________ / T>>

[Stephen M]

Pin'm

That is, drill a hole through the leg/tennon/leg (but not out the back side) and pound a dowel in there.

Oh never mind, you said you had already started finishing.

[Brikp]

OK, another option. Option 12 I think I'm up to! Thanks everyone.

How about this one?

Rip the top about 1 1/2" from the edge, affix the small side permanently to the base. Put the hinges in vertically, maybe use a piano hinge or some type of concealed hinge. It would look like this (Since I seem to be in an ASCII mood)

___o____________________________ / H Top \ \___H____________________________/ | | |L| |E| |G|

Downside would be an ugly seam and hinge in my nicely figured seat and a cut through my sliding dovetail breadboard end.

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:27:43 -0500, "Brikp" calmly ranted:

Mortise a piece in so it would have fresh wood to glue to.

More options:

6) Rabbet the top of the two legs 1/2" x 1/2" x leg width. 7) Use a deeper hinge and cut half the depth off the outside piece so it overhangs the skirt, providing the depth needed. (see half-ascii art below) 8) Miter both the top (seat) and the legs so they clear each other. This could be done only at the legs or full width of the top. 9) Use both a longer hinge -and- mitering to achieve the clearance.

--------------- | 0 0 | top/seat half =============== | 0 0 | overhang | |-------------- | 0 | skirt half of the hinge |-------------|--------------

========================================================== CAUTION: Do not use remaining fingers as pushsticks! ==========================================================

Comprehensive Website Development

[Brikp]

For the person who asked privately, here are some pictures...

too clear, kind of dark, but good enough to see where I'm at. I have ordered two different style overlay hinges from LeeVally to see if I can adapt them. If Ya'll are interested I will let you know what solution I do and I will send some final pictures as well. I will be continuing finishing and building the top. Hinges will be last thing in a week or two once final finish is dry.

What a great group! Thanks all.

[Brikp]

Thanks for the reply Larry. I found a couple of hinge options that, with the adjustments to the piece may do the trick. We will see. I posted a few pics if your interested. See my last reply to my original message.

-B

[Guess who]

I had the same problem when I built mine some time ago. What I did was to add a sturdy [1/2" thick, 1.5" wide] piece of nice looking molding flush with the top, and between the protruding legs all the way around. I fastened the hinges [regular brass, cut out the molding part to inset] to the molding and the seat. No protruding parts since all now have the same depth.

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 18:12:02 -0500, "Brikp" calmly ranted:

Yes, I just now looked at them, Brian. Cool. I, too, just made a LVT order this morning.

P.S: What are those little pieces of mitered quarter-round in the box hiding, hmmm?

============================================================== Like peace and quiet? Buy a phoneless cord. http://www/diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online ==============================================================

[George E. Cawthon]

I don't understand the problem, why not look at a piano bench. I assume your top is somewhat longer and wider than the greatest dimension of the case (including legs). On my piano bench twp flat hinges (no mortising) are set atop the case about t inches in from the outside dimension. The top is wider than the case so you really have to look to see the brass hinges. BTW its a bench for a Baldwin.

[Brikp]

They are a design element. wink wink Hey, what do you want, this is only my second real piece I'm making.