Alchoholic problem

[OFFW]

Please help, frustrated.

Using Shellac on a little stool, looking for a glossy smooth surface. So far I have stripped this jewel about 12 times.at least half of those times back to the wood behind the stain.

Using bullseye ?? sealer usually cut in half. USING a stain brown mahogany water based allowing a 24hr cure. Tried a dye but realized too late it was water based. (mixed it with shellac sealer)

Had it pretty much finished once but left in on the floor of my Jeep on a hot day and tiny bubbles appeared in the middle of the seat. My wife about went to tears over it. To her it was just fine.

What i am getting is brush marks from one end to the other. Little ridges that have to be sanded, looks fine and smooth when sanded but I cannot get gloss without the "lines".

Tried the French polish method and ended up with a good portion of the stain rubbing off too.

Talked to some guys about finishing and they said they never do it without a sprayer. Bought HVLP inexpensive sprayer. Used the Bullseye Finish shellac, light blond, no wax, got the orange peel look. Went to the 2# sealer it runs fairly easily if vertical, if flat it just lays out fine, but with the orange peel look. Tried putting on quick multiple coats, looked like crap.

Oh yeah the temp to day was 80 deg F in the shade.

What is really the best way to do this? I have seldom if ever had spray problems in the past but that was poly on metal, wood, paint and enamel. But this on is killing me.

[woodchucker]

Hard to tell. First when I want a gloss finish, I use a heavier final coat. Less cut on the finish when brushing. That lets it flow out (very quickly dries, so not much time). Alcohol thins it and burns into the next coat, so; to get that final flow out and nice gloss look, you'll have to use much less alc.

A water based stain should not be affected by shellac. So I don't know what is going on there.

You could just use scotch brite pads and work up to get the polished look. When I want to get the nibs off, and get a nice smooth coat, I go through the colors until I am white.

I then will sometimes put a coat of wax over it, depending on the use.

Shellac is one of the easiest to work finishes. Don't overthink it. It dries real quick, so you can't go over it more than once or twice. Otherwise you'll start pulling it, especially with more alc. I have thinned to 2x and 3x so 1 time is not so bad, but when brushing it can be due to the quick flash time.

[OFWW]

I'm hoping tomorrow will be a little cooler, I'll sand back and or use

4 aught steel, I' going to try a 1.0 mm needle, the smallest one I have and try it out on a test board.

I think when rubbing in the shellac I may have to lighten up on the alcohol. I tried a French polish on a piece of natural Black Walnut and it worked out great,

Thanks for the insights I'll give them all a try.

[woodchucker]

I don't know how much you know about french polishing, but when french polishing you use very little shellac, and you add mineral spirits to the rubber to prevent it from sticking. French polishing is about going over it and over it. But with an oil on there. I haven't done one in a few years. It was labor intensive, and it came out great. if you are looking for simple, try less alc on your final coats if brushing. If spraying there really should not be too much of a problem, If you get orange peel you probably don't have enough atomization, either turn up the pressure or thin more. My tendency is to go heavier for gloss on the final coats.

[Lew Hodgett]

-------------------------------------------------------------------- Patience is a virtue.

Try cutting to 1/2-3/4 lb cut.

Keep brush wet.

Allow to cure for at least 2-3 weeks before attempting anything else.

3M fine pads would be my choice, BUT only after waiting.

Good luck.

Lew

[OFWW]

Hmmm, are you saying that Shellac and mineral spirits are compatible? If so then it would certainly seem to help with the stickiness issue. I'm retired so for the exercise alone it would be worth the effort with French polishing, especially on an old guitar that could use a face lift and tone adjustment.

[OFWW]

I have noticed the difference in hardness of the finish on even a two day wait. A 2-3 week wait is better for a surface bond rather than a deep bond? If so I can see a lot of reasons for that.

When you say keep brush wet, do you mean solely with the cut you specified, and not prewetting the brush with Alcohol?

I have been thinking about shellac for finishing, sealing, etc. along with Hide glue for furniture pieces because of their long range repair possibilities. I have some dining chairs, maple, that need repairing on the back spindles. Would I be wasting my time doing the old school stuff on some pieces in your opinion.

Thank you Lew, the info is now in my notes.

[Swingman]

Yep.

And nothing finishes a shellac top coat like a piece of brown paper grocery bag, used to buff out the finish after it has cured, three to four weeks depending upon the temperature and humidity.

[Sonny]

He mentions brushing and spraying. So, which app technique is he using?

The temp may not be the problem, but where is he working, indoors or out. If he's finishing the stool outdoors, in direct sunlight, this may be cont ributing to the problem. If the stool is sitting in the sun, prior to fin ishing, it may be getting too hot, prior to the finish application. Also, the application, itself, may be affected by the direct sunlight.

Jeep scenario: If the shellac skinned over too fast, then maybe some alcoh ol was trapped under neath the skin, hence, the heating, inside the jeep (o n the seat), would amount to being in an oven, if the jeep's windows (and/o r canvas top?) are not open.

*A somewhat similar issue: Naugahyde (fabric) covered furniture/seats can affect some nitro cellulose finishes, when in long term (hours) direct cont act. I don't know if certain fabrics will affect shellac finishes. Heat ed conditions may make a difference, as to affects.

I do all of my finishing outdoors. I am always aware of the affects & eff ects of direct sunlight and too hot of conditions, as per direct sunlight. These conditions are first on my mind, when finishing. He mentions temp in the shade, so it makes me think he's working in direct sunlight. Also , his finishing symptoms seem to be heat and/or sunlight related, to a/some possible/probable degree.

Sonny

[Swingman]

Here's the contents of some old posts of mine on spraying shellac ... don't have time to find the responses, but you can DAGS if you need more:

1 1/2# cut of shellac is pretty standard for spraying shellac, IME.

Evaporation is obviously slower when the humidity is high due to the higher moisture content in the air.

So one method when spraying alcohol cut shellac in humid climates is to either allow evaporation to go faster by spraying on days with low humidity, or reduce the amount of water in the thinner (alcohol) itself ... mitigating, somewhat, the humidity induced slower evaporation as a factor.

An anhydrous alcohol has a low(er) water content. I usually use a 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol to cut shellac when spraying in this Gulf Coast climate on really humid days.

As I mentioned earlier, a possible problem spraying with thin alcohol cut shellac is the spray mist may dry before it actually hits the surface of the project ... particularly true with cheaper HVLP guns where you don't have a lot of tips available to fine tune the spray.

Shellac is about the only finish I use, and I always spray it.

If you are not planning on using anything but shellac, buy the three pound cut and thin it down to 1 1/2 with alcohol (I prefer to use this cut when spraying, but YMMV) ... experiment.

3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, although I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the "sanding sealer", out of the can should be a 2 pound cut.

You really don't need the dewaxed if shellac is all you're using ... the dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other top coat finishes added post shellac application.

The Zinnser sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used as the finish coat.

I just generally use the regular BullsEye amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1 1/2 pound cut with 99% isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity) sprayed on for the final coat.

I find I have better application on extremely high humidity days with

99% isopropyl alcohol, but the Borg denatured works fine 99% of the time.

IME, with humidity, what you're worrying about is blush.

With 99% isopropyl alcohol you need to pay particular attention to the shellac drying before it hits the surface. If that is a problem, simply cut your material flow down a bit and spray closer to the work (with HVLP).

Spraying shellac is not that difficult, as a matter of fact, it is easy and forgiving with an off the shelf, $100 HVLP unit. A couple of minutes with a scrap piece to make sure material flow and distance is right, and spray on.

[OFWW]

It has been in the shade the whole time, near the entrance to my garage. The stool is ambient temp. I used brush for the most part, then rubbed, then sprayed. Sprayed one day only.

Hmm, that makes sense, based on what Lew said about allowing weeks between actions.

The stool in the jeep was out of the sunlight, but I'd bet the temp was over 95 in the parking lot. I normally work solely in the garage, in part because even on overcast days the infrared rays still heat up the surfaces of whatever is exposed to the sky.

[OFWW]

Wow, I would never have considered that. Thanks for the tip.

There again is the time issue. Few people mention that, they always say how fast shellac dries. I have learned already that it is not too wise to work too fast, noticing the difference between a six to a 24 hour cure. Trust me, all this mention of time and patience is really appreciated here, I will be doing things differently.

[OFWW]

Thank you for the detailed information, it is like a bright light in the middle of the night. Between what I have seen from me screwups and impatience, and all the info I have received here, I will be walking a different path with the shellac. Thanks all for the help, it sure is a long ways from the old days when I sprayed shellac on automotive wiring, for insulation and making it look good.

[Lew Hodgett]

-------------------------------------------------------------------- "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------- "OFWW" wrote:

----------------------------------------------------------- Let the 1/2 lb cut do it's job. All you are trying to do is keep the surfaces wet and the easiest way to do that is to flood the surfaces with of alcohol.

The wetted surfaces tend to level out if you don't futz with them.

I wouldn't even think of looking for a 3M pad until at least 7-8 coats have been applied.

You can recoat every 2-3 days before starting sanding.

After that, switch to the 7-8 rout> I have been thinking about shellac for finishing, sealing, etc. > along

------------------------------------------------------- I'm an epoxy guy, Do it once and forget it. You definitely would not want me working on your strad.

Lew

[woodchucker]

I'm going to suggest you find an article on french polishing. French polishing is not merely rubbing the shellac onto the furniture. It's using a lubricant to allow you to rub it, you are buffing it in essentially.

[OFWW]

Jeff, thank you for this. Not sure how I missed that fact. It is sure vital. I will get a book as you suggested. maybe some of the videos I looked at were actually painting with a "rubber" since they were not rubbing in a circular motion but going with the grain. I am going to revisit so of the videos.

Meanwhile my stool sits as recommended. :)

[Ed Pawlowski]

Please flush

[Leon]

I have not seen whether this is a step stool or not, it may not be worth the effort to produce a perfect finish for something that might get scratched up from being stepped on.

[OFWW]

You know, this reminds me of when I retired, I wish like crazy I could do a brain dump of everything related to my trade to someone who would actually use it and enhance it. The info you guys have here on WW is awesome. I appreciate your clear instructions greatly.

When I get it done, properly, I'll try and post a pic for you all to see just how much you all helped.

I have a magazine rack I think I'll be starting so that I can keep busy while being patient.

This also is going in my files.

I'd be crying big tears, LOL, I shudder thinking about pulling out spindles to rework or reglue while half of then are still tight.

Cases, though, are a far different animal to me.

[OFWW]

LOL, had to happen. ;)

We have a huge water shortage in Calif, yet the humidity is high due to El Nino.