Yes folks, its cheaper to heat with electricity!

[The Natural Philosopher]

================ Netherlands - BritNed link

National Grid and NLink - a subsidiary of TenneT, the Dutch transmission system operator - have been developing a project for an interconnector between Britain and the Netherlands and announced in May 2007 that this link is to be constructed and operational by late 2010.

The ?600 million joint venture will support security of electricity supply in both markets and will allow BritNed's customers to participate in European markets and create open access for all.

BritNed will have a capacity of 1000MW and will be 260km long. The link will run beneath the North Sea between the Isle of Grain in Kent to Maasvlakte, near Rotterdam.

BritNed will transmit power in both directions, driven by price differentials and demand patterns between the two power markets. The link will facilitate competition and contribute to the European Commission's desire to for greater interconnection. It has been identified as a 'priority' project in the European power market.

BritNed will be a commerical, or 'non-socialised' interconnector, funded and operated independently from National Grid and TenneT's regulated businesses. Customers will open access to the capacity via a combination of 'implicit' auctions facilitated by APX, and short term 'explicit' auctions. This approach gives customers real choice about how they bid for capacity and ensures that Britned supports the ambitions for greater transpareny in the European energy markets.

=========== So thats 160 miles and 600M euros..£472M quid...at todays exchange rate. so a shade off £3M a mile for a Gigawatt.

Roughly equivalent in capital cost to about 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost of a nuclear or coal set.

Or a windfarm operating at peak capacity (which they don't, much)

[Jules]

Not sure about Congo, but there is this lot:

[Steve Firth]

You're at it again, making up bollocks and attempting to phrase it in such a way that you attribute it to me. I've not said that it's possible to construct HEP with *no* effect on the environment. However on balance HEP is far better in environmental terms than almost any of the alternatives. It's certainly far better than the windmills that seem to have captured the environMentalists 'imagination'.

More bollocks. I care a great deal, I also care about stupid bastards who sit in their nice centrally heated homes and air-conditoned offices attempting to tell people in the third world that they shoud live in poverty and without modern amenities in order that a few people in the west can continue to live as they wish.

Once again, when it comes down to it, you're showing that you have no concern at all about the poor.

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 16:20:37 on Sun, 27 Apr 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:

Alternating direction 50 times a second? Seagoon would be proud :)

[Duncan Wood]

Not recently, not on the same time scale & it's got a potentially more rapid response time. HOrses for courses etc.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I can just see all that hi-tech stuff parked in some of the most poor, politically unstable, and bitterly resentful countries in the world, standing up long enough to put a couple of watts into the UK grid, can't you?

[Andy Hall]

So thats 160 miles and 600M euros..£472M quid...at todays exchange rate. so a shade off £3M a mile for a Gigawatt.

So basically, at this capacity, it's either a pilot project to se what will work technically and commercially, and/or something to provide a sop to the EU Commission to obtain some kind of favour or investment.

[tony sayer]

Course that assuming that somewhere has a surplus they want to flog to us.. 300 odd ,miles from Norway to somewhere remote on the Scottish coast and what's to say they wouldn't cut us off or hold us to ransom;?..

Better get building those Nukes;!..

[Espen Koht]

As I've already pointed out, construction started in 2005. Facts and figures including progress updates on:

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In your opinion. But of course others aren't allowed one.

Since when has the money for this sort of project ever been found 'for the benefit of the poor'? And in the Congo where millions have died after near continuous squabbles over the last 10 years or so? You really think their own government gives a toss about the poor?

It will be the usual big business exploiting the poor for its own ends.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No: I think its fair enough, in that it is more a load balancer than a load transferrer.

They probably had windmills in mind, but it will still work for days when its chillier in Holland than here, or vice versa.

Essentially whoever works the link will see if spot electricity prices are cheaper in Holland than the UK, and contract as arbitrageurs whichever direction works..

[magwitch]

And the end of the great apes.

[Steve Firth]

That's more bollocks Dave and it's not a matter of opinion that HEP is less of an environmental problem than almost any other form of generation.

If the dam is not built, will it help the poor in any way? If it is built it will provide sustainable work opportunities. The fact that in your *opinion* the government of the DRC doesn't measure up to your standards is noted. But no one's asking you to live there. OTOH I suppose you could pop in and tell them how you think their lives would be better if they continued to live dependent upon imported oil.

Because of course all that business does is "exploit", eh?

[Steve Firth]

As I've already pointed out, the project was due to start earlier and design and prep. work was performed earlier.

Which carefully omits the fact that the project was shelved while the utilities got their act together.

Facts here:

"The contract was originally awarded to ABB in 2000, but restructuring in the power utility sector caused the project to be delayed."

[Derek Geldard]

Don't confuse Fisher and Hansen with technicalities.

Obviously what is needed is we all shove one of these "Hippo" things down the toilet.

DG

[Espen Koht]

Indeed, which underlines the problem with the claim that 'construction started in 1996'.

[terry]

Yes they are sometimes (quite often recently as price of oil shoots up) used here (Eastern Canada) as retrofit for oil systems. Eliminating furnace combustion chamber problems, fuel tanks and fuel lines and chimneys. Also reduces insurance costs and environmental oil leak issues. Also no fuel deliveries.

An associate bought a single storey house, with full basement which already had an electric furnace replacement. Within last couple of years their house was enlarged and completely rebuilt and now has a larger electric furnace that heats by underfloor piping. The units have typically several heating elements that cut in as demand requires; are 230 volt and used in 'zoned' systems. Our associate's house has AFIK 3 or 4 separate zones.

Not seen any numbers but they seem to work well. Day and night electricity being about ten (Canadian) cents per kWh.

PS. April 27th. Chilly today, raining, temp. just above freezing. Not fit to do anything outside!

[terry]

On Apr 27, 5:38=A0pm, terry wrote: and writes further ......................... xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

BY THE WAY: Glad I asked that question about a possible DC cable between Scotland and (I think Norway?) read about back in the 1950s!

Very interesting discussions and links provided by variuos posters!

I guess the answer to my original question (Posting # 92) is that it was, back then, only a proposal?

Interesting how, today, the aspect of 'trading' power depending on instanaeous demand and pricing comes into it.

The recollection of the original discussion was that it was a 'load sharing' arangement; no 'competition' in those days, as we were rebuilding after surviving WWII. With US help we won btw!

I recall the British PMG (Post Master General) of those times being quoted that "Only 50,000 people were waiting for phones". In fact shortages of phone lines and everything else were so common people didn't even apply for phone service knowing that they'd wait years before having any opportunity!

In 1953 went away from home-base installing telephone equipment, in Gloucester. Had to take my ration book and give it to my landlady for her to buy certain foods! And that was 13 years after WWII ended!

Thanks for the discussion. terry

[Andy Hall]

Even so, it's fairly limited - approx 1.5x the output of one generator at one of the large coal stations such as Drax, or a quarter of its output. That station with 6 x 660MW units (4GW) produces around 7% of national demand. Ergo, this connector has a transfer capacity of around 1.5 - 2%. Seems very little.

In comparison, Interconnector (the gas interconnector) has average flows of +/- 200,000 MWh and peak flows of 400,000MWh - i.e. almost

100x more.

It would seem to be more suitably scaled to windmills rather than serious generating capacity.

This would have to be for very short term peak loadings when spot prices are high.

[Steve Firth]

Oh yes, and the polar bears.