What constitutes reasonable wear (cordless drill)

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Tell me IMM, what's your first language?
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Double dutch
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geoff

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wrote:

like
I am not on about crappy products, just good DIY products. Top of the range trade tools are a waste of money for DIY. You were on about down time. Two cheapish tools, compared to trade tools does not give down time.
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You get what you pay for.

Not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors:
a) The quality, accuracy and ease of use of each b) The reliability c) Productivity as measured by whether the job can be completed more quickly and/or to a better standard. d) The trade off between time and cost for the purchaser.

That's a fallacy because of course it does at some point. Let's assume that a cheap tool will fail in half the time of the quality one. Your argument is that when the cheap tool fails, you can pick up the second one and keep going.
However, the argument is more complex than that. If you throw away both cheap tools when they fail, then you have incurred no cost in going to get them fixed. If you wish to invoke the warranty, then it is going to cost time and money to do so. As a minimum, packing and taking to post office or returning to B&Q etc. This is all time and money. If you consider that your time costs money, even for DIY purposes, then this is a significant issue. I don't want to waste half a day returning something.
However, the quality tool, apart from most likely providing a better and faster result, will be worth getting repaired or the spares to fix when it does eventually fail. So if I take that route, it represents better value for money taken over a period of time. Moreover, if more has been paid for the item then it is much more reasonable to expect a high level of service. With careful selection of vendor and retailer, that generally happens, in my experience.

.andy
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They were all deliberately illustrations of relative and not absolute criteria. In most cases, I can produce better results with a trade quality tool than with a DIY tool, the accuracy is usually better, as is the ease of use. I can normally get the job done, to a higher standard, more quickly.

Except that the issues are not.

Not really, but whether you would be able to follow is another matter.

All of which take time and effort and that costs money as far as I am concerned. If you don't cost your time and are looking only at cash outlay then the argument may be different.

It of course depends on the specific tool, but in general a trade or industrial tool is manufactured to a higher standard than a DIY tool because it either has to do a more accurate job, be able to be used ofr longer at a time and have a longer lifetime.

Bullshit. That entirely depends on the standards that one wants to achieve and the time to be taken in doing so.

That depends on the individual and the tool.

Not in my experience and with good branded tools, the spares are available anyway.

Do you know any?

No, right. However, it does depend on what the individual wishes to achieve, as well as how much use the product gets. As I pointed out, if you don't value your time and absolute cash spend is the number one factor, then cheap tools may be interesting. If I can buy something that will last for at least 5 years without more than basic care as opposed to something at half the price with a 2 year warranty that fails after 2 or even 3 years then I consider the more expensive tool to be better value because I have not had to waste time taking it back.

All manufacturers produce crap at some point, whether it be a manufacturing or a design defect. I know with a good quality tool purchased from a reputable retailer that I am going to get any issues resolved very quickly or a refund. With a cheap store brand tool, there is every likelihood that the model has changed and spares are no longer easily obtained. OK, so a 3 year warranty is expected to cover that. These are calculated by either building the cost into the product price tag (implying it is even worse than would appear) or that people won't bother to take them back.
Case in point. I purchased a DW biscuit jointer from Axminster something over a year ago. It had a design defect with the fence resulting in incorrect angle setting. I returned it and received a refund with no issues at all including a refund of the return carriage cost. I replaced it with a Lamello which is an excellent tool.

.andy
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Normally on Sunday afternoon when something has to be finished over the weekend
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What you describe is not heavy use. My suggestion would be a polite letter to Screwfix stating your case and asking for a repair/replacement. Let us know what you do and how you get on.
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Peter Crosland wrote:

Due to the high-spend I've had with Screwfix since buying our current property, they've upgraded my account to a VIP account. Since this happened, things have changed somewhat. They are accomodating to the point of silliness, and routinely replace items/resend orders without question. They were always good before, but the account upgrade made them even better.
I recently posted about the little table saw which I burnt out - again, not my fault, honest, it just had a poor motor. They refunded it no questions asked.
I don't think I'll have too much trouble getting a repair if I ask for it, I just wanted to get consensus on whether I was being reasonable.
Will post followups.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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It has a 2 year warranty, and is marketed as a tradesmans tool.
I would expect repair, rather than replacement with a new unit though.
dg

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Providing it is used for the purpose for which it is designed and sold, then it should reasonably last for the period of the published warranty as a minimum.
Without reading the terms of the warranty it would seem to me that during the first 12 months the drill is covered by ScrewFix, thereafter by Erbauer. However you'd need to check that (with ScrewFix initially).
Overall I would think you are on reasonably safe ground with respect to a claim on warranty, so you should have nothing to fear from contacting ScrewFix. Both they are Erbauer ought to be interested in this because neither would want to gain a reputation for selling goods which fail within the warranty period.
However look out for the clause in the small print which serves as a general get-out clause.
PoP
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On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:08:46 +0100, PoP wrote:

And remember that a warranty is supplemental to your consumer rights. If you wanted to kick up a fuss (which you apparently don't) you would kick up with ScrewFix and have them return it to Erbauer. Obviously it would make more sense for you to return it to them yourselves, however if it subsequently fails ScrewFix could say "this isn't the drill we sold you nor an authorised replacement and it hasn't been repaired by/through us".
Anyway, I think they'd be happy repairing/replacing it given your VIP status, just wanted to remind people that the warranty is additional to your consumer rights which covers you for up to 6 years from purchase.
Cheers,
Andy
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:33:26 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"

6 years? I'm all ears if you've got the time; sounds fascinating. I could see a year or three fairly easily, but 6 years, gosh! Presumably diminishes a bit along the way?
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:45:59 +0100, Gnube wrote:

It's fairly straight forward. Neither the Sale of Goods Act[1] nor any other applicable act (e.g. the Sale and Supply of Goods and Services Act [2]) mentions anything about a limited amount of time that goods should last. The Sale of Goods Act does have provisions that a product should be reasonably durable.
The maximum length of time you have to claim is up to 6 years.
Basically the guidance I have been given is that if a reasonable person would expect a given product to last X months/years then it should. If you buy a 20 GBP drill and use it on a building site every day for 7 hours/day a reasonable person wouldn't think it would last long.
There is a leaflet downloadable from the Which? web site[3] which you may find interesting and there is a report somewhere on the net from Which? that shows how they went back to high street retailers after the year warranty and asked for a repair. Only a couple of retailers (out of those tested) admitted they were liable.

It's getting easier! ;-)
Cheers,
Andy
[1] http://www.shef.ac.uk/law/research/icls/documents/soga/SoGA_new.doc [2] http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940035_en_1.htm [3] http://www.which.net/campaigns/retail/cls/13.pdf
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On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:20:58 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"

Thanks for that, We have a particularly good local radio consumer show most weekdays, and they recently hinted at this, and now I can see what was behind the hint, although the general principle is quite obvious, it's just a bit unusual to have a legal situation which actually makes any sense, let alone quite a lot of it. ;O)

Is has here since I gave it a miss, went back to windows and within a few days had it doing everything Linux had failed to deliver. However, I'd never have known where to look or even what to look for if it hadn't been for the short linux experience in between. So it had it's value in the plot! Not very likely to re-visit it though. It fair enough, it's not really intended for an ordinary end user audience by the look of things.
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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That's the fist thing I did when I got broadband, downloaded the 3 Mandy 9 ISOs and had a crack at it.
Oddly, just posted what happened in the "Re: RFD uk.d-i-y" thread in reply to another, playing with my sig! ;O)
I just looked in my CD wallet and it's in good company: FreeBSD 4.5 - 4 CDs plus the mini one; LM 9 - 3 CDs; Debian Woody - 7 CDs; Suse 8.0 - 1 CD; Knoppix 1 CD.
Since I've bought examples of them as well as downloading latest version at times too, I think I've done my share of giving it a fair go. I would admit to being a bit of a picky so and so though! I'm sure in time I'll find one I am pretty much at home with. Oh and Gentoo has been of interest and may go for another spin in the not too distant future. For now it's win2k pro, and it's serviceable for what I want to do (just).
Anyway, I'm sure we'll bore all and sundry if we carry on with this in here, it's about as off topic as you could get, fascinations as it is for us perhaps! Shame as there are no Via-Epia type board groups on usenet as far as I know, and that's about DIY if anything ever was, I'm hoping to lob one into a HiFi receiver that died last week in the not too distant future. Got some saving to do first though! Anyone know how to start one, and wouldn't mind trying to do so? I bet the UK has quite a few tinkerers of this sort floating about! Good, clean, cheapish fun! ;O)
Sorry for the off topic stuff everyone, I normally try to keep a lid on it!
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:40:35 +0100, "Andy Jeffries"

No, that's not what I meant to say. I was more rating them than expressing how I personally found them.

Indeed it would be like that to a certain extent, however in my youth 3 of us clubbed together to build our first car, a bullock, based on the salvage from a ford escort van, so that would be in character for me I guess! It wasn't the having a car, but the learning which was the most rewarding. Even if I have forgotten it all again now! ;O)

Indeed, but I happen to have access to a Gentoo guru, and that helps! ;O)

I always keep a machine handy for playing about with Linux. Most of what I find a problem with linux boils down to there being a lot out there who will urge just about anyone to try it, and very often, if you do, and then mention the things it does not do because that feature is actually broken (so far, it may get fixed one day) they then typically say, "oh, well, I don't use it that way, I only use it for....!". I can't help getting the feeling that might have been more usefully mentioned BEFORE or even WHILE urging another to adopt it! You rarely see that happen though, at least not IME so far! ;O)
Anyway, this isn't really the place for this subject, I hope I din't upset anyone too much by replying, but didn't want to leave what you say ignored either, it seemed worth more than that; And, loosely speaking, Linux is a DIY operating system anyway.
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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250 on a cordless drill? For DIY? Ouch!!!
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IMM wrote:

Well, yes, I feel that way too - but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a piece of kit like that to last a while, and if that's the going rate for a decent tool, then what other options are there?
I don't see a great deal of point in replacing the Erbauer with another Erbauer. The Axminster White and the PPP 18V drill look to be the same drill rebadged anyway (but 50 cheaper).
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Look around. Good DIY/light pro tools are available. PP pro come to mind

PP Pro then
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