sometimes maybe (I thought that was just crap tiling ;>)
I still don't think some air trapped between ridges is going to do anything to help the adhesive dry what bits of air there may be will soon be saturated and unable to move and take moisture elsewhere...
Jim K
It's a well known problem in the trade.
I got shouted down here
here
oh yeah ;>))))))))
(don't let it take over your life...)
Jim K
here
I've been reading around, and in several "pro" file forums, the advice is simply to avoid tub adhesive for "large" tiles (A4 counts as large), and for porcelain tiles. I factored in that this could be because those forums were so heavily influence by companies that make "proper" tile adhesive (as well as tub stuff) and in their ranges the stuff you mix yourself is more expensive than that you buy in tubs. Even so, the advice seems overwhelming.
I suppose even if the tub stuff does dry in a week or so, that's not much good for a pro who wants to grout the next day and get out of there.
I went back to the shop I bought the adhesive from. There was a different guy serving, who seemed reticent to give _any_ advice, but he said that maybe the tiles were single fired porcelain, the finish was a bit "biscuity", and so he could see why possibly it wouldn't grip so well. I said the previous guy had identified these tiles as being the only ones (of the three types I'm fixing) that _weren't_ porcelain, so the only ones where the purple top tub _would_ do. For everything else, he'd sold me Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES (ES takes longer to set - I chose that, being an amateur!). The guy said that would grip _anything_, so I swapped the tub for some more bags of that, and will see how I get on.
He said if I suspect adhesive failure, the company that makes it would send a chemist around to see what had gone wrong - but that 9 times out of 10 they would just blame the tiles or the substrate.
Thinking about it logically, given that the walls are well sealed, the tiles are quite large, and there are at least some parts where the adhesive sits solidly behind the tiles, I suppose it's no surprise that it doesn't set very quickly (or at all!).
The guy fitting my kitchen said it looked like a mistake that most pros could have made, since he'd used the purple top tubs for the last
6 months, including on similar sized tiles stuck onto PVA sealed walls, without problems.It could just be bad luck, but I probably won't risk it again.
For the record, it's Focus DIY's Memphis Beige wall tile made by Seramiksan.
My plan is to do the other three walls using ProFlex SP +ES, and then when I get back to the start, any tiles that can _still_ be pulled off the first wall will be refixed using ProFlex SP +ES.
I just hope it's not my technique that's caused the problem, though it seems fairly clueless people can make tiles stick to the wall (my mother-in-law has supposedly done it!), so maybe it's just bad luck.
Cheers, David.
here
FWIW the only problem I've ever had was with a north facing basement bathroom. No light, no airflow, and tiles floor to ceiling. Those buggers took over a week to become firm enough to drill into.
As I said, my experience with modern tub adhesive is that it sticks to any tile and (virtually) any substrate, but you must use a notched trowel/spreader to get the right depth of adhesive. If you need to pack them out in places to get them level, they will be the last to firm up.
here
Just to add I've never had a prob with tub adhesives either yet.
Though not done more than 1/2 a dozen jobs I've never had a prob with tiles falling off unexpectedly.
Used Wickes ready mix (red and blue flavours) on last two jobs respec. onto plastered and bare plasterboard surfaces - no priming, no PVA, large format 600X400 ceramics on one, 330X250 ceramics on latter - absolutely no problem 2 years later.....
Cheers Jim K
Thanks. I suspect this would have dried out quickly if the plaster hadn't been primed.
It does all seem to be firming up now (over a week later), though I wouldn't dare drill it yet. I used the proper notched trowel. Tiles at edges of window openings with exposed have dried quickest, despite exposed edge being packed solid. Windows are open, which probably helped.
Anyway, I'm carrying on with the mix it yourself stuff. Seems a bit gritty by the time it's tick enough not to "slump" (as the instructions suggest). Going to have a google to see what consistency it's supposed to be!
Cheers, David.
In message , Bolted writes
That's partly why I use ready mixed. These adhesives should ideally be whipped up like a cake mix, which is beyond the home user. I think the consistency should be the same as a ready mixed filler or plaster from a tub i.e. you should be able to stand a screwdriver in it. Not a very scientific way to describe viscosity :-)
Seems cement based adhesives just are gritty by nature.
It's not too bad mixing it - bucket + wizzy mixer thing powered by a drill, and it's not too much effort. Now I've figured out the right quantities it's much quicker - less trial + error!
The tiles I put up last night are now stuck completely solid - you couldn't get them off without breaking them. Whereas the ones I put up over a week ago with the tub adhesive could still be prized off in one piece if you really wanted to.
Cheers, David.
David Robinson wibbled on Saturday 07 August 2010 13:30
I went by the manufacturer's data sheet and measured the recommended quantity into X kg of powder. It's more faff and the pro tiler I had for another job laughed, but if you're not sure what the result is supposed to look like, it's an easy way to get it right.
The kg pre litre figure might be right, but in the absence of scales, I used the "2.5 parts powder to 1 part water", measured in measuring jugs. Didn't work. But 3 parts powder is pretty good. Could maybe do with even a fraction more.
Anyway, the tiles are still staying up! And it's quite handy that it starts to set within an hour or so.
Left me wondering if this is why these Focus tiles are so cheap though.
Cheers, David.
how cheap's cheap?
Jim K
They cost me just under =A37 per square metre. I think the wall and floor ones were about the same price. Unlike a lot of the cheap ones I've seen, the printing doesn't look really nasty close-up.
Focus website shows them =A310 now, and out of stock...
Cheers, David.
do they seem "dusty" on the rear (adhesive) side ? just wondering if your adhesive is sticking to the dust rather than the tile??
Cheers Jim K
A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered" anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive doesn't seem to mind!
Cheers, David.
A tiny bit, but I brushed most of it off, and they weren't "covered" anyway. It could have been another factor, but the new adhesive doesn't seem to mind!
Cheers, David.
Two weeks later, and I think I have some answers.
Focus Memphis Tiles
Focus Memphis Tiles
I think we can assume that, with _some_ tiles at least, the first combination would have worked perfectly as well - after all, new plaster + primer + that adhesive is exactly what is recommended ("ideal") on the tub itself!
So my adhesive failed because of the combination of the tiles I chose _and_ priming the wall. Between those two surfaces, it just couldn't set.
Using Ultra Tile ProFlex SP +ES instead, I have no problems at all. Sets like a rock in a few hours. Not quite so convenient though - and once it's set, if you've missed cleaning a chunk off, it's a beggar to remove!
I hope this info helps someone in the future - pulling the tiles off, scraping the crumbly adhesive off the wall (it doesn't stick to the tiles), scraping the last dusty bit off that's stuck to the primer (bringing the primer with it), re-priming the wall, and doing the whole ****** lot all over again, is a bit heart breaking. Glad it's just one wall!!!
Cheers, David.
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