OT: Four in every five sets of traffic lights should be removed, report claims

[dennis]

On 25/01/2016 20:19, Nightjar > Highway code says that the only red on roads is used to desiignate no

And then it doesn't mean no parking ever. The same as double yellow doesn't mean ever.

[Mr Macaw]

I remember pumps where the nozzle was on the end of the pump (neither the left or right side) and you took it to whatever side your car filler cap was on. I also remember some of them allowed you to pump two different fuels at once, one for each side, and others didn't, or worse they got confused and nobody knew how much to charge each person. I was told off once when I went to pay as there were two bills for one pump. Could just have been stupid cashiers I guess.

Talking of queues, don't you just hate it in a supermarket when people point blank refuse to go closer than about 1.5 metres from the person who's paying? Is this some fear of being thought of as watching for the PIN number (even though the keypad is facing away from the queue)? What you end up with is a half empty conveyor belt so the cashier often then has to wait while someone loads their stuff onto it, and people queued back to the aisles getting in the way of people who are still shopping.

[T i m]

Well, I can assure you that most people respect yellow boxes (in general) around here.

There is even one right along the front of our local fire station and in spite of me never seeing a fire engine come out of the station whilst I've been waiting ether side of the yellow box in the 60 years I've lived here, no one ever does stop in the boxes?

Or maybe you were only to referring to those on roundabouts (that we don't have round here that I know of)?

Cheers, T i m

[Mr Macaw]

On any size of car (not van etc), all you do is park with the back of the car in line with the pump. You can even leave a 2 foot gap between your car and the pump and it'll still reach. No skill required above that of being able to park in a supermarket car park without leaving a whole space each side of you, which almost everybody seems to manage. Even if you drive a bit too far forwards, the law of Pythagoras tells us the hose won't have to be much longer.

One exception is some LPG hoses which are too short, whereas others are excessively long!

[T i m]

I don't think you live in the UK so your rules of the road may be different. Over here it is very much an offence to 'Enter a yellow box when your exit is not clear, except when turning right' and anyone caught by a Police Officer or on camera may be prosecuted for doing so.

And over here they do generally work for that reason and without them, the stupid / selfish / inconsiderate drivers would cause gridlock.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Of course, I said that ("I agree is against the rules and potentially dangerous"), however it still won't change what people actually do and do to good effect, 99% of the time.

Cheers, T i m

[Orange]

None of ours have.

Ours don't. But we have lots of small parks and walkways and the kids play there.

Ours don't, they walk on the road.

We're not that stupid.

Not going to happen.

[Mr Macaw]

I do live in the UK.

I've never seen that as an easy thing to work out. The traffic in front of you might be moving, then stops as you enter the box.

Never heard of that exception, mind you I've never opened a copy of the HC. Why on earth would you be allowed to block it when turning right?

Same applies to running red lights, speeding, etc, etc, obviously you check for the presence of a cop before doing any of these things.

Nope, when you see someone opposite you wanting to turn right for example, and you're going straight ahead, you leave a gap, whether there's a box or not. I don't need a box to tell me to be courteous. If someone wants to cross my path or join me from a sideroad, and I can create a gap easily and flash him without anyone else thinking I'm flashing them, I'll let them in/through.

[Clive George]

Provided they're only slowing slightly, so far so good - but as soon as they're slowing a lot, wrong - if there's an opportunity for somebody to overtake, that opportunity will be taken. So don't let it be taken, don't merge early.

And that wouldn't happen if people didn't merge early.

If people didn't merge early that wouldn't happen.

No, it's because there is reduced capacity in the one-lane section.

Zip merge is at the obstruction, not "a reasonable distance back". Take a look at a zip - do the lumps merge together way in advance, or only at the closer bit? Hence the name. So I'm not changing the picture.

No, there doesn't need to be the "unwritten exception". If people drive as they should, both lanes fill.

And you will always be the victim.

You merge early, you will lose. Like all the other "most people" who are also idiots.

No, you're idiots.

There are more options than driving like a victim (like you do) and driving like a nutter. It's possible to overtake and zip merge cleanly and calmly with no danger of skidding, ploughing through cones, etc.

You've not gone far enough in your analysis. Why was it possible for those "few who considered it ok" to do that? Because everybody else merged early. If people zip merged in the first place, the problems you're talking about wouldn't have happened.

I am entirely happy. And those who aren't are the authors of their own misfortune.

I'm probably more rural than you. But I still know how to work a motorway lane closure.

It was very satisfying seeing the A303 zip merging beautifully this Christmas. People can do it, they (and hence you) just need to take another step to do it better.

[T i m]

Yes, I was referring to (some) vans and trucks etc where the filler can be just behind the cab.

Yup.

Exactly ... so 'some* skill required it seems then. ;-)

Yup.

We do have some pumps (now?) where it specifically states that the hoses are extra long. Doesn't seem to help some though. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Mr Macaw]

If you don't have enough skill to park close enough to a pump, it's doubtful you would have gained a license in the first place.

Probably not extra long, just a notice informing the ignorant that they've always been that way. Most pumps I see have the anchor point at a certain height. If the hose was longer without raising that, the hose would get left lying in the way of the next car.

That reminds me, those lazy Americans with the pump nozzles you can lock on, I find it so funny when they forget to take the nozzle out before driving off.

[T i m]

Then the exit isn't clear. ;-)

Because you often have to wait for a break in the opposing traffic to be able to cross it?

Or camera and if you lived in England you would know there was hardly a space where there wasn't at least a camera. ;-)

Yes, you should, many wouldn't if there wasn't a yellow box.

Nor me, many do though. There are also instances of frequently used side roads and factory entrances where it could be quite easy to obstruct without realising it was in 'constant use', sp they protect them with yellow boxes.

Quite, we manage.

Cheers, T i m

[Mr Macaw]

So you'd stop just in case it wasn't going to be, thereby reducing traffic flow?

But if you cross it when your exit isn't clear, you're now blocking the heavy traffic from the opposite direction. This is actually the one time I wouldn't cross a box. I behave as if the box isn't there, you don't turn right if you're going to hold up the queue of traffic coming the other way you just had to wait for a gap in.

Only red light cameras actually do anything. There's CCTV all over around here, but not once have they used it to do me for a traffic offence. Presumably they only consult it in the case of an accident, mugging, etc, etc.

Forcing people to do something is not a good idea. Better to educate them.

If it's in constant use, you'd see things coming in and out of it. There's boxes around here "protecting" entrances where I virtually never see anything exiting or entering!

I'm waiting for the highway code morons to tell us off for flashing "wrongly".

[T i m]

Really? I'm pretty sure it's not part of the test ... or are you suggesting all the incompetent drivers out there don't have licences? ;-)

Possibly.

Ah, again, many of ours (in the Uk) are recoiling so they can be pulled out as far as necessary. So, you wouldn't be able to tell just by looking at the pump if the hose was longer than 'std'.

Yeah. We used to have locking pump triggers years ago but not now days that I know of (on std car pumps especially).

Cheers, T i m

[tim.....]

coming off the M20 at Ashford late at night, to go and fill up at the Tesco, is particular bad for that :-)

tim

[Mr Macaw]

I meant spatial awareness in general.

I am also in the UK.

I hardly ever see those. But then I fill in supermarkets where they probably use different types.

I'm surprised they still do with all the health and softy nonsense going on nowadays. They get upset when hot coffee is hot, but they don't mind people yanking hoses off pumps with highly flammable fuel in them.

[Huge]

I doubt that. It's 4 times the price of black.

[Huge]

[78 lines snipped]

Who are balanced by the c*ck-suckers in the inside lane who won't let you in.

[T i m]

Quite, and I can't say I've ever seen anyone doing anything else (other than to conform to a slower speed limit though said restriction etc).

Of course. I'd say 'most people' travel up to and including the speed limit. There are some who seem to panic at any opportunity.

Yes, by a nutter.

No, you merge when it is correct to merge, dependant on the speeds in use at the time.

But to merge any later risks leaving it too late and most (sensible) people prefer to be on the side of caution. After all, *everyone* will have to go though the same restriction so why not just get in the right lane as soon as it is appropriate to do so? Why drive past countdown markers or repeats of the restriction signs when you know it's inevitable?

See above.

Yes, but that still applies even with a sufficiently low traffic load to justify any delay. Have you never seen or experienced the caterpillar effect of slow then fast moving traffic on a clear motorway? You are crawling along and then back up to 70 and nothing has changed? Any interruption in the free flow, even if within the capacity of the road can cause this bunching and even long tailbacks.

Yes, *once* the traffic has been slowed sufficiently for that to be used. Before that the merging is likely not to be even but will be whatever sits right with 'most drivers'.

You are because with people and vehicles, 'speed' plays a big part (and why it is mentioned specifically on that section of the Highway Code).

I had because I understand how it all works in the real world. ;-)

And if people drove as the highway code suggests they should (and in general they do) the cars would all merge into one lane long before the actual restriction, if said restriction was in a road of suitable speed in the fist place (and I sited the case with the lorry on a dual carriageway).

I can assure you I am rarely that. ;-)

Ah, now I think you are saying more about yourself than you might have intended. This isn't about winning or losing, this is about right and wrong.

So you would be putting yourself in the minority groups then? People who often get referred to as 'nutters' or 'mimzers' etc?

Hehe.

A victim with a 1000cc motorbike you mean? ;-)

No, what you don't do is 'overtake' when merging ... that's the whole point of merging, you 'merge' and to do that you all have to be going at similar speeds. If you overtake a line of traffic that has already merged then you will be 1) going faster than them and 2) hoping that there will be a bigger space then otherwise required for you to then merge into (without a lot of braking anyway).

Have you never watched an F1 car trying to overtake and finding themselves shut down at the chicane?

Ok ...

Because the lorry hadn't pulled out at that time.

Like I said, they hadn't merged early, *they* had merged at the correct time and place.

No, they had already zip merged (or as close to that as the traffic in each lane and the relevant speeds would allow) then come to a halt because of either someone overtaking, forcing themselves in or the sheer weight of traffic.

Then you are one of the selfish drivers we don't like. ;-(

It doesn't sound like it? ;-(

And just recently I watched drivers (possibly like you) 'pushing in' to a queue of traffic trying to get off the A1 onto the M25 because they didn't want to queue like the vast majority. Few of them are ever 'let in' because 'most people hate queue jumpers, they simply force themselves in using bully tactics. Those of us queuing patiently were the ones who had correctly zipped 3 lanes into one and we queuing along the single lane that fed the 3 lane road and roundabout.

See above. 'People' are already doing it, as per the Highway Code, it's just you (and your kind) that aren't. ;-)

70 mph dual carriageway, sign saying right lane is restricted in 1 mile. 'Most people' would consider their lane and speed, the general levels of traffic ahead and then slowly start 'merging' with the left lane. The chances are 'most people' will all be in the left lane long before the 1st countdown marker. People pass through the restriction (at whatever speed is indicated or suitable) and if the traffic is light enough, they pass through the restriction freely and return to their original speeds.

Then two things can happen.

Some 'nutter' tears down the outside and only pulls across as they are up against the codes. The people inside them are forced to brake as they force themselves into the single lane. Because a few cars have had the slow quickly, the remaining spaces between the following vehicles is now less so they too have to slow and before long the rest of the queue has come to a halt. Now, as long as the additional vehicles merge into the single line, the general line of traffic will speed up again and normality may resume.

Or, more nutters pour down the outside, effectively 'overtaking' all the others who had already 'zipped' and again, will have to force their way in because 'most people' resent them overtaking like that. Now the extra issue of the zipping restricts the speed to much less than it was initially (again, as covered by the Highway Code).

Anyway, you have already admitted you are happy to take advantage of others like that so I don't think we have anything further to discuss eh? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. OOI, you are approaching the back of a queue at a supermarket checkout and they open another till. Do you slide past the other people queuing and jump straight onto the empty till or give some of those already queuing a chance to move across first? I think I already know the answer. ;-)

[T i m]

Exactly, have you seen some of these people drive ITRW! Haven't you seen people refuse to go though a gap you could drive a bus though, or not be able to use a gap between parked cars on their side to give free passage to someone coming the other way? And lets hope and prey they don't have to reverse whilst steering into a small space for the same reasons? Yes, these people may have passed the test because they managed not to break too many of the rules in that 45 minutes. Since they passed their test they have only crawled round the congested back streets, put them on the open road and they are lost (or the other way round with a country person in a big city).

But you haven't seen people conforming to the yellow boxes, didn't know about their 'unless turning right' or about the recoiling petrol pump hoses?

I think they are used all over the place? Personally, I avoid the combined petrol station and shop as I can't stand queuing while someone pays for the weekly shop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think even they *mind*, it's just they haven't worked out what to do about it yet. ;-)

Cheers, T i m