Moving BT master socket, is this frowned upon?

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On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:03:42 +0000, Jason Arthurs

I am curious!
I would have thought that running any sort of equipment in the loft is asking for trouble. Reason being that the temperature up there can go outside the specs of the equipment. It gets damned cold up there in winter and sweating hot in the summer.
Am I just being unrealistic or could this be a real problem?
PoP
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If you don't take any steps to control the temperature then it could be.
I dealt with it by making an insulated cabinet and arranging two fans with ducting in and out from the outside and inside the house. The fan speeds are controlled by a temperature sensor and motor controller, and there are servo controlled dampers in the ducting.
During the winter months, air is brought in from and out to the house so that heat produced by the electronics ends up in the house. The fans run fairly slowly and the cabinet is maintained pretty well at about 23 degrees.
During the summer, air is taken in from and delivered back outside. The fans are still effective even in hot weather and last summer the cabinet only ran a couple of degrees above the outside temperature during the hot period, which was OK. Most of the time it was running at the 23-25 range.
.andy
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Andy Hall <> wrote

Methinks you worry too much.
Any decent kit (i.e something that's not been cobbled up in a 3rd party case) has a wide operating temperature, and it is the rate of change of the ambient temperature that causes an issue, not the actual maximum or minimum temperatures.
My firewall (Compaq Pentium 2) is in the loft with no special insulation around it, and the projected low for tonight is -4.
I'm not worried about it. It will just get extra cooling this evening ;-)
I have had computer room air conditioning failures causing a very steep step change in temperature (up to ~32 degrees C in 1 case) I had 3 disk failures out of an installed base of ~600 and 1 machine auto shut down due to overtemperature out of 200 (and this was found to be too close to adjacent kit).
Similarly I have seen machines operate at either end of their envelopes [1] without incident.
Cheers,
Paul.
[1] Spec sheets on mine say: 5 to 35 C Operating -20 to +60 Non Operating
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I don't disagree that rate of change can have a big effect, although high continuous temperatures do affect the failure rate of electronics in general. For example, it is common to do accelerated tests at high temperatures to check for failure in new designs.
The low end generally doesn't matter unless the air is very damp because the equipment itself will generate enough warmth to keep it dry.
High end can be a problem because 35 or 40 degrees max operating ambient is very typical for IT equipment. In a loft in the summer, even without the extremes of last summer, that can be reached for a few hours in the early afternoon.
.andy
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This kind of testing is looking for permanent, physical, failure modes.
Operating at too high a temperature in a loft is unlikely to do permanent damage (unless the temp is really extreme) but will cause malfunction.
Andrew
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On 27 Feb 2004 04:03:11 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@sheerstock.fsnet.co.uk (Andrew) wrote:

I know.
I was using this by way of example rather than as a cause. However, higher temperatures, even on average do increase failure rates.
The main point of maintaining suitably low temperature, as you say, is to prevent malfunction.
.andy
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On 25 Feb 2004 18:21:21 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@technologist.com (Zymurgy) wrote:

I regret that I disagree with you - using an analagy it's like you saying that your car is fitted with seatbelts so you are immune from being involved in an accident!
Equipment safety functions can - and do - go wrong. So whilst your PC (etc) might work just fine in a given temperature range the scope might change very markedly if say the internal fan fails. By way of example if the PC is operating within its safety limits with an ambient temperature of 35 degrees C and then an internal component goes out of spec then a temperature in the equipment could rise markedly and lead to a fire.
I simply don't think that having a single point of failure within equipment is a good idea, if you are continuously relying upon it to save your bacon.
Your home insurance company might well take a dim view of paying out if your equipment were to catch fire. Whether or not they can be challenged on their decision is another matter - but you can feel comfortable that they can afford a bigger team of lawyers than you can.
PoP
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PoP <> wrote

Well, it'd be a boring group if we all agreed on something ;-)

Not saying that at all, just that using my not insignificant knowledge of computer management in large datacentres, across an enormous range of kit i'm just saying that measures such as these from Andy:
:I dealt with it by making an insulated cabinet and arranging two fans :with ducting in and out from the outside and inside the house. The :fan speeds are controlled by a temperature sensor and motor :controller, and there are servo controlled dampers in the ducting.
are overkill in my mind, and still do not mitigate for equipment internal cooling fan failures.

Equipment will catch fire if it is so predisposed wherever it is located.
If this was caused by loft overtemperature, then I agree, there will be some culpability. If we have a long hot summer reminiscent of '76 then I will consider secondary cooling, or relocation of the equipment, until such time, I remain nonplussed.
I remain convinced my firewall will be up after its freeze thaw session last night, due in no small part to the microclimate around it ;-)
Cheers,
Paul
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On 27 Feb 2004 10:22:14 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@technologist.com (Zymurgy) wrote:

Well... yes and no.
Datacentres use air conditioning, at not inconsiderable cost, to maintain a realtively constant low temperature because the equipment manufacturers suggest that reliability in the short and long run is improved.
A branded product will typically have higher quality components and more attention will have been paid to environmental factors than might be the case in a Hu Flung Dung superspecial.
The internal temperatures (which is ultimately what counts) of PC and more sophisticated networking equipment can be monitored and logged and used to trigger shutdowns in the event of problems. This might be through ambient temperature rising or specific equipment fan failure. I tend to fit extra cooling fans to equipment and power it separately to the equipment PSU anyway. This is a pretty cost effective way of working because fans are cheap.
Temperature monitoring inside is easy enough to do as well, and it is also simple to look for sudden rates of change of temperature and excessively high temperatures and to shut things down. For my particular requirements, I can selectively do that and still have enough redundancy to keep working as I need to do.
Using controlled external cooling air is quite common for equipment racks as a means of maintaining a reasonablly constant temperature and keep things working in circumstances where the high temperatures would otherwise result in malfunction or failure. As always, it's a cost/benefit trade off, but I've found that the way I've done this works pretty well in terms of implementation and running costs.
.andy
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wrote:

The air conditioning in datacentres usually also performs environmental scrubbing operations - removing dust particles from the air.
If dust were allowed to continue circulating then the equipment motherboards (etc) would over time acquire an overcoat of dust. That could potentially cause localised overheating at chip level.
However I digress. I'm showing my own long-term knowledge of working in a maintenance role in datacentres :)
PoP
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Zymurgy wrote:
Equipment will catch fire if it is so predisposed wherever it is

The coolest place without forced cooling on a hot summers day is in open shade. IF you have efficient loft ventilation, that is often the loft.
If there is restricted airflow and e.g. a tled roof, then the best option is to buld an insualted room in teh loft, and arrange significant ducts to it and force air through. Air temp seldom exceeds 30C in this country above street level, and altho this is on the high side for consumer equipment, its not a huge problem if there is an adequate supply of it.

Low temperatures are not such a problem. Most kit will do -5C all right. Semiconductors lose gain and get slower as they get colder. Sometmes this is enoug to cause timing errors, and a system crash. Mostly its higher temps that do the harm tho. I have fixed several recalcritant servers by blowng shite out of/replacing the fans and getting them working again. Some died permently. Thse were all SUN SPARCS BTW.

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snipped-for-privacy@technologist.com (Zymurgy) wrote in message

That's rubbish. Electronic equipment can and does fail when operated outside of its specified temperature range. The spec for any piece of equipment is a worst case figure and you may well be able to operate a particular example well outside that spec but there will be a limit at both high and low temperature.

The low temperatures we get in this country (even left outside) would not generally be a problem for most electronic equipment if left powered up to keep it warm.

So? The air con failed and the ambient temperature became too high. It has nothing to do with rate of change. Even if you had raised the temperature over the space of a week you would have seen the same failures.

That's what they're designed to do. Take them outside their envelope and they *will* fail eventually.
Andrew
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Andrew wrote:

I have to agree. Ther are failure modes associated with temperature cycling, most;y mechanical stress leading to failures of joiints and frit seals on chips, but by far and away the usual cause of semiconductor PERMANENT as well as TEMPORARY degratation is overtemperature.

Most commercial equipment can reasonably be expected to work between 0C and 40C. The chips themselves are generally in spec between -5 and 70C, but that is not the whole story....MIL spec stuff is rated between -25C and 125C

Precisely. Internal air temps over 50C are almost certainly indicative o very high junction temperatures - go ovcer 175 junction on MOS and its 'good night, vienna'.

Mostly thety stop working before they fail. Chips are made to lie withing specs, but no manufacturer in the world designs his kit to accept components that are all at the worst possible end of the specification spectrum.
Insdtead a monte carlo analyisis is done at best. In practice what actually happens is that the designers do their best, a few prototypes are temperature tested, and the production goes ahead. If lots of users report a similar problem then the design may be examined, but mostly they just get replacement boards. Its cheaper.
Even MIL spec kit os not necessarily designed to any different standards, but it may well be sample tested in an envoironmental chamber to ensure it works over the specifed range.

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I bought mine from J H Hardy of Birmingham - 0121-7848478. Also online at http://www.jwhardy.com/pages/pl_telephone.html . You want CW1308 spec cable in black.
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Regards.

Nick Pitfield ( snipped-for-privacy@nickpitfield.com)
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My 2 BT lines current end at a master socket in the back bedroom. I was going to call BT and ask them to move the master sockets out to my shed (which is being converted into an office).
But having thought about it, perhaps its best just to run extensions to the shed.
Will this affect my ADSL speed? As the OP asked, where can I get the exterior black BT cable to run out to the shed?

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On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:27:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

It'd be cheaper if nothing else.

Have a look here.
http://www.jwhardy.co.uk/shop/pages/pl_telephone.html ..
SJW A.C.S. Ltd.
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On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:27:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

Perhaps a nearby BT van could provide an 'offcut' in return for some beer money etc.
cheers, Pete.
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Stephen Gilkes wrote:

Nothing is critical. BT black cable is onl useful in that it has a steel wire running through it to help it suspend over long runs.
CAT 5 is electrically perfectly good enough.
BT engineers are all subcontarcat anyway, and no one really gives a toss provided they have access to a master socket somewhere.
In my new house we simply picked up the old cable that had been re-reigged into the portakabin, slung it up a ladder, stuffed it through the eaves, and connected it via a chocolate block to some cat 5, and ran that to the master socket. Firuntaley I still had one that says 'BT digital access' on it.
ISDN works fine.
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If I'm just going to run an extension from the master sockets ( I have 2 lines). Can I access the master sockets or do i have to use an extension cable that pulgs in to the front of the master socket. Someone told me that I cant use the black external cable anyway as it is missing a wire.

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On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:59:36 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"

You undo the two screws in the front of the master socket and the bottom half of the faceplate will pull away. On the rear of this are the required terminals for connecting to extension wiring.

Not true, you need 3 wires per line, so if you are running two lines on the extension cabling you need 3 pair cable, (6 wires). You can get cable in different cores, maybe someone told you of his experience assuming it was a standard cable that they had. For reference purposes, I have just fitted some 50pair cable for 48 digital extensions, that may be a little ott for your needs but you can go as large as you like. ..
SJW A.C.S. Ltd.
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