Lead Water Incomer

[Cod Roe]

I have inherited this mess:

(bottom valve doesn't work, so doubled up with a cheap service valve for maximum flow :-) )

Unfortunately this lot has sprung a pinhole leak in the cold weather, which I just about managed to bodge fix with some silicon, a bit of hose and a jubilee clip, thus (it is dribbling slightly):

question, which I know is a bit like how long is a piece of string, but how long do people think this will last?

Secondly, fixing it properly, I think what is needed is smashing a hole in the floor and joining a piece of MDPE on below the current screed level. However, the only stop tap for this pipe is the one in the street, shared with next door. Is removing the concrete without damaging the pipe likely to be possible? How do people recommend making the lead-MDPE join? Another possibility is cutting the pipe close to the right hand service bond (the left has been cut and only has a few inches of wire), and joining cooper on there, again, how best to do people think to do this? Finally, does anyone have any better ideas, or know a plumber up to this sort of thing near North Oxfordshire?

Any help much appreciated.

[Martin Pentreath]

Bad luck. Good temporary bodge. I've no idea how long that might last, but it clearly needs fixing, so you may as well bite the bullet ASAP. Depending upon how fast the leak would be without the bodge, if it were me I'd be turning off the outside stopcock whenever I left the house, but I guess your neighbours might not be delighted by that.

Whatever you do to fix it, I think one of these will be invaluable:

[John Rumm]

Nice... ;-) (that's not a full bore service valve BTW)

Are you in a hard water area? If yes, then it may seal itself in time, otherwise it will carry on seeping.

Its is, but I would avoide if possible. Depends a bit on how good the concrete is.

If you loose the top clamp and slide the lower one to the right a bit, there is plenty of space there to get a leadlok or transition fitting on the pipe.

BES have a range of fittings that are up to the job - basically a bit like a compression fitting with with a thick rubber O ring in place of the olive.

Since you can turn it off in the street, its not too bad. (more fun doing them live with no stopcock!)

[js.b1]

Nothing to stop you turning the stopcock off in the street.

- #1 buy a suitable key, eg, Monument 339C crutch type on Ebay for about =A312

- #2 notify the neighbour, perhaps buy 10L of mixed brand water just in case

You can use freezer sprays, but they make me nervous on lead.

Alternatively a plumber who knows his stuff re working on lead. That would be leadloc - although surely there is an off the shelf compression fitting for lead these days? The problem is lead varies in weight not just bore. To identify the correct leadloc size you use string rather than a micrometer.

When done, move the earth clamps (EC) to hard pipe (copper) after the stopcock. EC should not be made onto lead pipe, EC should be made after the stopcock typically within 600mm of entering the property or reasonably practicable if all preceding joints are visibly soldered). All too easy for someone mucking about with checking EC to damage lead pipework before your stopcock leaving an expensive mess.

[js.b1]

Leadloc seems to be the only one available. I do recall one which used different inserts for different pipe - it covered a limited range and was a quick hand tighten with plastic compression nut on the lead end, sort of like an oversized Hep2O connector.

[Cod Roe]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I'm starting to feel a bit more confident in doing this. A few google searches have turned up other people in praise of Leadloc, I've found the manufacturer, Melimatic:

who stocks them, I've drawn a blank in BES, Toolstation, Screwfix etc?

[jenny]

I've found

well. It replaces the nut on a coupling like larger size universal adaptor replaces a 32mm nut, the smaller a

25mm. A

[<me9]

Isn't it policy in some areas for the water company to replace lead incomers FOC?

[robgraham]

Certainly my experience with a lead in-comers is that they are seriously prone to deteriorating. I think I had problems with mine 4 times in different places over 20m before I bit the bullet and replaced it.

I've also had to help a friend with similar deterioration.

By all means fix it in the short term but look to replacing the whole thing in the near future would be my advice as I suspect you will be visiting it again if you just leave it.

rob

[Tim Watts]

On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:01:54 +0000, Cod Roe wibbled:

MDPE "Universal transition fittings":

used one from MDPE to 1/2" alkathene. The intro will tell you which size to buy for your MDPE and lead size.

You really need a strap wrench to do the nut up (basically follows a "finger tight, then X/4 turn kind of method"). It will be too tight to do by hand and most tools bar a strap wrench will chew the nut up.

You should however be able get a stilson on the body to steady it without causing much damage as there are some decent mouldings to get a grip on. Worked for me.

[dennis]

IIRC they come in different sizes to suit the lead pipes and you may have to scrape the lead pipe to get a good fit.

[dennis]

works well. It replaces the nut on a coupling like

> The larger size universal adaptor replaces a 32mm nut, the smaller a > 25mm.

are several other sizes listed

[Cod Roe]

Thanks guys, been a long day. I think I'll go with the brass Lead-Loc ones, I assume they're genuine Melimatic ones?

[John Rumm]

[John Rumm]

I have used those on a MDPE to copper transition, and was able to do it hand tight and the a little help with a set of waterpump pliers used carefully. Strap would probably be better though!

[john]

Had a similar leak on my lead incomer. As temporary repair I 'stitch' peened around the leak point using a lump hammer and a 1/8" flat bottomed pin drift. Enough Lead got moved about to forge a seal. Been OK for 10 years :)

[js.b1]

Could of course do a solder wiped joint with moleskin & so on.

There is no FOC replacement of lead mains incomers, however if you replace your incomer to their inspectors satisfaction they will replace the "communication pipe" to the road for free. Most generous of them.

[Appelation Controlee]

-------------------8><

I thought that was a no-no these days?

[Tim Watts]

On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 09:08:08 +0000, Appelation Controlee wibbled:

On one hand, if you have a lead pipe it won't make the slightest difference long term if you add a bit more lead alloy to it.

Short term - there is an argument that the soldering process will knock some protective layer of limescale off the inside of the pipe and expose the drinkers to fresh lead. All 6" of it... Until it scales up again.

The more likely issue is unless your plumber is over 50, he probably doesn't have a clue where to start with a wiped joint...

[dom]

For the past year or so, I have an all-plastic MDPE stopcock fitted directly onto the black alkathene main. No insert used, no leaks, no problems.

(Other side of stopcock is 22mm barrier pipe, with insert. There's also an mdpe stop-end on another incoming alkathene pipe, that's probably been in 2 years, also without any problems).

I'm sure *at the time* I checked manufacturers data to ensure this was ok, but can find no sign of it now.

I'd really be reassured to know I'm not living on borrowed time!

I managed with pipe grips and a great deal of care not to tear up the nut, but a strap wrench would be much better, and easier to handle in a tight corner.