joiner desert??

[unsimpi]

PLease *god* (or uk-diy) help me.

I need a joiner and have tried for w e e k s to find one.. and have failed.

What's going on??? Where are the local tradespeople or failing that, all the predicted new ex-eastern block trades-people.. ????

I phoned 8 today;

1) from poster at work - have left messages 2wice before, again no answer, left message.

2) recommended by friend - have left message before, again no answer, left message.

3) recommended by (kitchen extension last year - all went great) builder and roofer - million messages, left another.

4) from yell.com dead number, found web site with same dead number, emailed advertised email address..

5) from yell.com - can't do anything for >3 months

6) from yell.com - died 1.5 years ago, relative/friend distressed at call.

7) Answering machine, left message.

8) ditto

Is it me??

I've (mostly) never even got as far as explaining what I need. Are domestic jobs just not even worth thinking about nowasdays? I need quite a few things done despite doing lots DIY, I just don't have the energy or expertise to do everything. I thought collecting them together might help.

Am I the only one??

Maybe I should get a new bathroom or something just to get someone on-site, then maybe imprison joiner in back room before agreeing fair price for work + release.

One of the things we need fixing is our front door which may invalidate insurance. If we're burgled in the near future, I may become first joiner-specific serial killer.

I'm in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Free bespoke, baked-to-order, family sized (8"), pork pie made from delicious rare breed pork from renowned Northumberlad farm butcher (New Barns), for first joiner to help me out (i.e. do the work for going rate).

Any tips much appreciated. Please don't use unsimpi email address, I don't check it.

Simpi.

[Bob Mannix]

Is it me??

No

No, you are correct, they aren't. End of story, I'm afraid.

I was talking to my builder after he finished ny extension. He's a small builder and had 10 jobs on the go and another 20 on his desk to price up. He can't do them all - what's going to go in the bin - the big ones or the small ones? The tradespeople that remain are usually aligned 100% with one (or more) of these builders which gives them continual, profitable work - they're not going to upset them by being unavailable.

The matter of whether it's a sad indictment on current manners that you didn't get a reply is different of course and I deplore such rudeness.

[[news]]

agreed

both, ime. they take the line of least resistance: most money for least amount of aggro, either with the job or the householders and theres nothing a tradesman hates more than a reasonably competent DIY'er who knows a little more than the absolute nothing their usual punters do.

they're either a/ afeared that thier shoddy work will be spotted or, worse, the DIY'er will know more about the job and be a right p.i.t.a, especially when a/ above comes into play.

RT

[Bob Mannix]

In fairness my builder was very good. I had three quotes for the same work, £25k, £35k and £45k. My builder was:

a) the cheapest b) the only one recommended to me

This may, of course explain why

a) he never advertises b) he has so many jobs to price up

My point was that even conscientious, hardworking, good value builders have almost no choice but to discard small jobs (although they may actually give you a reply).

[Owain]

Simpi wrote | I need a joiner and have tried for w e e k s to find one.. and have | failed. ... | 2) recommended by friend - | 3) recommended by (kitchen extension last year - all went great) | builder and roofer

You're approaching this the wrong way round. You need to get yourself recommended as a client to the elite body of men in the joinery profession.

Do you have an attractive unmarried daughter who could stand provocatively outside the timber merchant flashing a bit of thigh at any likely-looking transit van

| Free bespoke, baked-to-order, family sized (8"), pork pie made from | delicious rare breed pork from renowned Northumberlad farm butcher | (New Barns), for first joiner to help me out (i.e. do the work for going | rate).

Well I suppose that's a start, although you probably need to throw in a crate of Newky Brown, your daughter's hand in marriage and a spare kidney or two to get any serious interest.

Owain

[jacob]

Speaking as a joiner (unavailable due to own project), when I was available I was offered about 30 times as much work as I could possibly handle. Basically there is a massive skill shortage which in turn means a massive amount of neglected joinery getting more decrepit by the day. I'd try to reply to most enquiries however. Inspite of this I found that very often especially small jobs people didn't want to pay the price. They think we should be cheaper than, say, garage mechanics, but they are wrong.

cheers

Jacob

[Dave Plowman (News)]

When you go to a garage, you're paying for all sorts of overheads as well as the mechanic. Are you suggesting a jobbing joiner should get the same hourly rate as a garage charges? If so I'd say you're profiteering.

If, however, you're comparing a joiner's rate to the actual mechanic's rate, the equation is different, since most mechanics will be full time employees rather than self employed.

[Doctor Evil]

This is total rubbish. A joiner has costs, like tools, w/shop/van, etc.

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to open account

[jacob]

We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork machinery, tools, vehicles etc What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the perks, benefits and security of employment. People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much tea as we can drink etc etc If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers, nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering". What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how much do you get paid?

cheers Jacob

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.

If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions. Oh - I'm freelance.

Thought you said you turned down 30 times as much work as you were offered? Then market forces apply.

Did you not read my post fully? If you're comparing your earnings to those of a mechanic, that's one thing. But you were comparing them to those a garage would charge. Like over 100 quid an hour in London, for example.

I negotiate my rate - same as you. For some things. For others, it's take it or leave it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Again, you show your complete lack of knowledge of the trades. The sort of joiner who does jobbing work in private houses is unlikely to have premises, or to employ other staff such as receptionists and secretaries etc.

[jacob]

What you are talking about is a handyman . If he doesn't have a workshop etc he is going to be severly limited in what he can do. I've been a joiner for 30 years and I know lots of other joiners and we all without exception have workshops etc as described, and overheads. You do occasionally find an odd-jobber who may have joinery skills, or a joiner looking for a job - usually with a joiner who has the necessary tackle as without it he is just a handy man. People who accuse others of profiteering are often a bit selective - they support free markets if it results in increases in their ISAs, pensions etc - unearned profiteering, but are horrified if free market forces put up workers pay particularly the low paid. Bigger joinery firms are quite likely to employ receptionists, secretaries etc. What is it you think is so different about joinery businesses?

cheers

Jacob

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'm not.

Then they need to charge the going rate or go bust.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making. In one breath, you say there are far more customers than tradesmen to satisfy the demand. And in the next, you're underpaid.

Doesn't quite ring true to the laws of supply and demand.

[Nicholas]

Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?

[Capitol]

That's not how I read it. You appear to be indicating that Jacob is whingeing. Not so IMO. AIUI, he is stating the true facts of the present market conditions. The joiner has a personal skill set which has taken years of practicing the trade to achieve. If you wish to purchase this persons time to utilise these skills, then it is purely a market supply and demand situation. If I had these high level skills, I'd be more expensive than the average car main dealers hourly rate, because that's what I'd be worth to the customer. The cost of capital equipment is a red herring, over a few jobs, the equipment costs are normally relatively low in a craft occupation and that includes main dealer car repairs!

Regards Capitol

[Paul Mc Cann]

I wouldn't get upset about what certain types of people think or expect. There will always be a customer who appreciates a good job when he gets it and is happy to pay accordingly.

When required we use a family plumbing firm for any jobs I don't feel like tackling or haven't the time to do. They aren't cheap. But they do come when they say they will, they do a good professional job and they are neat and tidy. They are very much in demand

The same goes for a local electrician.

So I say don't be afraid to charge the rate that allows you to do a satisfactory job, and as I'm sure you will have found out, word of mouth will produce all the work you require

[Mike]

You b****y well do now. In fact I'd say my NI contributions are higher than when I worked for others.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Not denying that in any way. I have a great deal of respect for a good joiner - and indeed any craftsman. Even a good motor mechanic. ;-)

That was my point. I don't think any tradesman - or really anyone - is worth over 100 quid an hour.

Oh please. The cost of equipping a main dealer's workshop and reception etc is vast. Far more than any jobbing joiner's. I'd suggest you visit one sometime.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Almost as bad as top posters who don't trim - and attempt to join in the discussion.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

See an accountant. If you're near SW London I can recommend a decent one. Seriously.