joiner desert??



Err, have you been following the thread? It's not about the pros and cons of garages. It's about a chippie claiming he has the same outgoings as a main dealer, and should be able to charge the same sort of money.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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We have exactly the same sort of overheads - premises, woodwork machinery, tools, vehicles etc What is the difference? Also if self employed we don't get any of the perks, benefits and security of employment. People seem to think that should be good natured simpletons who will do an honest days work for a pittance and be grateful for that and as much tea as we can drink etc etc If trying to make a reasonable living is "profiteering" then teachers, nurses, garage mechanics, you name it - are also "profiteering". What sort of profiteering do you do as a matter of interest, and how much do you get paid?
cheers Jacob
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Then you're not a jobbing joiner but running a workshop.
If you're the sort who goes to people's houses to do work then I suppose you'd be roughly similar to Home Tune - but they pay franchise fees.

Nor do you pay anything like the same tax, or NI contributions. Oh - I'm freelance.

Thought you said you turned down 30 times as much work as you were offered? Then market forces apply.

Did you not read my post fully? If you're comparing your earnings to those of a mechanic, that's one thing. But you were comparing them to those a garage would charge. Like over 100 quid an hour in London, for example.

I negotiate my rate - same as you. For some things. For others, it's take it or leave it.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Irritating tw@, aren't you Dave?
London SW

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Almost as bad as top posters who don't trim - and attempt to join in the discussion.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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^^^^^^^^^^^

Should have read 'and don't attempt'
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Top posting to make a point is perfectly acceptable IMO. Only the usenet pedants object!!
Capitol
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

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You b****y well do now. In fact I'd say my NI contributions are higher than when I worked for others.
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See an accountant. If you're near SW London I can recommend a decent one. Seriously.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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the
Well unless he's using the soon to be closed Luxemburg loophole I can't see how he can legally reduce the NI below the type 2 and type 4 cap if you are earning well above the limit. Of course in the old days you paid the wife and took the money in dividends but that's all been blown out by our Scottish 'friend' in #11.
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 14:37:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

Well in my book, a "joiner" is someone who works from their workshop, and a "carpenter" is someone who goes on-site.
I'm looking for work, as I'm trying (and to be honest, failing) to get established as a furniture maker (If I cost more than Ikea, that's pretty much end of story for most clients). As I still have my bills to pay, I'm perfectly happy to go and do some decent simple work for a reasonable rate for that job. The fact that I _can_ make boulle work doesn't mean I should get sniffy about lap jointed softwood, if that's all that's needed.
Yet if I try and tout myself around builders, they're supremely uninterested in employing me. The ideal candidate is 23, strong, fit and thick. Most on-site building work is _not_ rocket science, and they don't have any need for someone who can do something they simply have no demand for - and why should they ?
I was offered a job recently, by a kitchen fitting company who'd gone so far as to look at some of my own work - inch thick solid oak cabinet tops, and a decent piece of work it was too. Then the guy offered me 6/hour ! (Lidl offer over 7 for shelf stacking).
I don't particularly _want_ to be a jobbing on-site carpenter or light builder. I don't have a van, I have my own money in my big workshop tools (so I'd like to make them work for me), and the last thing I need is to have to kit out a rolling workshop as well, so that I'm equipped to do anything and everything from glazing to roofing to floor sanding. I don't particularly want to be a sole trader on that basis either - there's a lot of overhead behind that yellow pages listing, the always-answered phone, and the good response that the OP was finding so sadly lacking.
So in a market when the simplest on-site carpentry work is making more profit for a builder than anything awkward, complicated, and with a resident customer looking over your shoulder, then can we be surprised if no-one wants to do the sort of joinery the OP is after ? The builders have better things to do, maintenance for commercial or "corporate" residential pays better than individuals, and anyone trying to do it on their own finds that the money on offer is basically insulting.
I'm also a skilled Java / J2EE developer, in a market that's pretty moribund for 40 year olds (hence the furniture). I've probably put more effort into learning what I know about furniture than I have software. The rewards for one are vastly more than the other, but the skill levels are no different.
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Smert' spamionam

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Andy
I had exactly the same problem and started off not quite knowing what I'd be doing - I bought a box of blum hinges (only ever used 4 in the end) and MDF etc expecting to do kitchens or whatever. Got jobs doing all sorts of joinery work slowly but perfectly which people seemed to find a bit eccentric. Infact someone said recently that he'd been to someones house and he had had pointed out the curved skirting boards with the perfect mitres and scribes which I had done years ago. Did some crap work too - you can only learn by doing it! But then by chance I got in to period joinery and just specialised in that alone and didn't do anything else at all. Got loads of work and made a bit of a living. http://www.owdman.co.uk/joinery Also it's a rapidly growing sector with lots of demand and shortage of skills. Leave all the crap work (and the crap clients) to the cowboys. So specialising might be your way forward - stick to a limited repertoire and become expert in that. I'm hoping to start anew when I've finished current project - chapel conversion, but with furniture instead of joinery, and have one or two particular things in mind which I hope to specialise in
cheers
Jacob
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wrote:

Odd. In my book a joiner comes to my house to do repairs whereas a carpenter makes things for me in his workshop.
Great thing the English language :-)
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Mike wrote:

In mine the carpenter is someone who does mostly framing and carcassing work using sawn timber whilst the joiner makes and fixes 'joinery' - doors, windows, etc., working generally to a finer scale of precision.
Carpenters work mostly on site, except perhaps for traditional timber-framers who have a 'fraymin place' for pre-fabricating frames for later reassembly on site. Joiners in larger firms will tend to be bench joiners (workshop based) or journeymen, working on site. In a smaller set-up they'll do both shop and site work.
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Andy

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Jesus's dad was a carpenter and he made furniture. One would presume this was in his own premises.
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On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:39:43 +0000, Andy Wade

The use of "joinery" (orig. "joynery") for fixed "trim" work is of a later date, roughly when timber panelling began to be used. It was to make a distinction between joiners and cabinetmakers, not carpenters.
(ref. Cescinsky)
Joinery was originally) a furniture making term, the making of "joined" panels with a frame and central panel, as opposed to earlier boarded or clamped work.
(ref, Hayward)
A joiner also uses a plane at a bench, whilst a carpenter originally used neither (they'd use an adze instead).
(ref Goodman)
If we were to take descriptions of Jesus as a guide, then Mel Gibson's film version (hyper-accurate Aramaic and all) portrayed him using a type of screw-vice bench that's first known from a Nuremberg engraving of 1505.
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Andy Dingley wrote:

Yeah well, that's long enough ago for Hollywood.
All these Historical films - as my daughter explained recently - are set in the same place. That place is called Yore. It's where all of that Old Stuff happens. And it's probably why Yore-up is called Yore-up, 'cause it's summin' to do with Yore.
Y'see?
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snipped-for-privacy@jpbutler.demon.co.uk says...

I wouldn't get upset about what certain types of people think or expect. There will always be a customer who appreciates a good job when he gets it and is happy to pay accordingly.
When required we use a family plumbing firm for any jobs I don't feel like tackling or haven't the time to do. They aren't cheap. But they do come when they say they will, they do a good professional job and they are neat and tidy. They are very much in demand
The same goes for a local electrician.
So I say don't be afraid to charge the rate that allows you to do a satisfactory job, and as I'm sure you will have found out, word of mouth will produce all the work you require
--
Paul Mc Cann

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