Fernox CH Protector shock!!!

[RichardS]

Have recently drained and refilled the CH (sealed combi setup).

So, dusted the bicycle down and off to the shops for a tube of inhibitor to inject into a rad (previous tips and advice on performing this procedure has been noted.)

First choice, D&M, sadly didn't do it any more, but I did get to have a chat and catch up with them and dribble over some of their new Milwaukee stuff (it's nice!).

Plumbcentre not open Sat afternoons.

Down to Wickes. They do bottles of the stuff but not injectable ones, and despite the helpful advice on the back to introduce via an empty rad if on a sealed system no tools in evidence to assist this and I can't think how to empty the chosen rad in the first place.

Right, last choice (in every sense of the word): Homebase.

Yup, they had it. I was stunned at the price, though: £30 for an injector tube of Fernox "Superconcentrate Central Heating Protector".

Is this about right in other's experience with getting this product from plumber's merchants?

If it's within a couple of quid I'll use it and get the job done this weekend.

If it's a tenner or so out I'll wait till Monday, see if Plumbcentre are significantly cheaper, and if so get that and take the homebase stuff back as a matter of principle.

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[Lee Blaver]

I remeber paying a little less last time I got some, but it's £30 here as well:

or not that is representative, I wouldn't know.

Lee

[RichardS]

> Whether or not that is representative, I wouldn't know.

doh! I do miss the obvious sometimes!!!

Sitting here typing in a question to usenet and forgetting to use the web as a tool to search for prices...

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[John]

Why not use the standard stuff - it is cheaper. Turn off both radiator valves and then loosen one of the connections to the radiator - with a large tray underneath to collect the water. Open the vent valve to allow air in and water out. Drain sufficient and then tighten everything up. Remove the top bung of the radiator using a square key and then find a way of pouring in the Fernox. I used a washing up liquid bottle and kept refilling it until complete. I've heard of some using a garden sprayer.

(All this assumes that you can open a bung at the top of the radiator - some newer ones may be different to mine)

[Andy Hall]

That is the most expensive.

BES have it on line for £23.

Plumbcenter have it list at £30. If you can't get at least 30% off then it's time to hone your negotiating skills. :-)

.andy

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[Andy Hall]

About £15 vs. £23 on line.

Most now seem to have a small brass screw and not the full tap type any more. You can get a fine plastic tube into one and siphon from a container. This does need to be a large radiator because a container of Fernox MB-1 is 4 litres.

I've done that, although for a different reason.

For the house system, I use the gel stuff into a radiator, but empty it as you describe first because it can be messy injecting it under system pressure.

I've seen professionals make up a small adaptor with garden hose, a connector for the filling loop valve and a couple of jubilee clips. The other goes on the end of the gel cartridge. This works OK for regular use since although gel will be left in the hose, each system will still get the full dose from the cartridge. Not mush use for DIY since too much would be left in the tube.

I use a modified garden sprayer for my workshop system. This is run via a heat exchanger from the house system but because of the risk of freezing under certain conditions, it is filled with a solution of Fernox Alphi-11 antifreeze and inhibitor. If you thought that the gel was expensive - I needed four containers of this stuff at £15 a container to get the required concentration. Needless to say, if I need to drain then I want to keep the solution.

So, I purchased a Hozelock sprayer on offer at B&Q out of season for about £10. The aluminium tube on it fortuitously fits an 8mm compression fitting. With an adaptor up to 15mm and a BSP fitting, I can attach the filling loop hose to the sprayer. I can then fill the sprayer and if pumped up to max. it will pressurise the system to

2.5 bar if I wanted. Therefore it would certainly work to add 4 litres of MB-1 to a system under about 1 - 1.5 bar of normal pressure.

.andy

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[RichardS]

Thanks, folks.

I may have had a change of heart on this - probably visit the plumbers merchants on Monday and get some standard stuff, then introduce into an empty rad via a funnel and hose. Any idea how big a rad it needs to be in order to get 4L of the stuff in? I have a convenient double in a bedroom (upstairs, so it's going to be one that drains first) but it's only about 1m width (standard height).

Another thought that strikes me is that I ought to go the whole hog and run the system with a descaler, flush, and then introduce the inhibitor.

Are there any pitfalls that might occur running descaler through a system where I don't know it's history (I think it must be at least 10 years old)? Leaks/heat exchanger or pump failures, etc etc?

Reason for the change of heart is that I think I should be able to do the whole descale/inhibit thing for a similar cost to this gel inhibitor, and I really don't like paying top whack for the Rolls Royce convenience product - especially if it comes from homebase.

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[Andy Hall]

What's standard height Richard? :-)

Measure the length and height of the radiator and the number of panels. Refer to manufacturer's web site (e.g. Myson, Stelrad, Barlo) for the same or closest you can find.

Some manufacturers list water capacities for each radiator. Others do litres per section with a table showing each height. Yet others show kg of water per section and roughly a litre weighs a kg anyway.

Try emptying one radiator and see if there is much sludging. If there is, then I recommend my method of removing radiators and washing them outside with pressure washer or hose. Usual health warning applies of inverting radiators and rubber banding sandwich bags to radiator tails to avoid drips on carpet and subsequent castration. Flush out at each radiator as well to remove grot in the pipes.

Then, or if the system is relatively clean, put in system cleaner and run hot for a couple of days or as recommended. System cleaner is not that effective on heavily sludged systems.

Flush again and add inhibitor.

Almost. Especially as Homebase is hardly a Rolls Royce store.

.andy

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[Lawrence]

Lawrence

usenet at lklyne dt co dt uk

[RichardS]

ta. I do tend to forget that manufacturers put a lot of data on the web.

Fortunately things are running relatively clean. The two radiators I had off last week were pretty clean, and the water comes out clean when draining down. Bleeding is rarely necessary, so not much hydrogen being produced by corrosion, it seems.

-- Richard Sampson

email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

[Andy Hall]

Given that, I'd drain the system, refill and add cleanser; run hot for a few days, drain, flush, refill and add inhibitor.

If you do it this way and add the chemical first to an upstairs radiator then there is no need to worry about the radiator size......

You will probably find that there will be a fair amount of air collection in the radiators for a day or two as fresh water contains a lot of dissolved air.

.andy

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[N. Thornton]

Have you visited the car accessories store? Last time I looked, antifreeze with corrosion inhibitor didnt cost a lot per gallon. Nothing like 30 squid.

Might be worth xposting to the sci.chem group too, in case theres some common cheap product that inhibits corrosion for a quid a gallon.

Regards, NT

[Andy Hall]

You want to trust a heating system costing several £k to chemicals that may be unsuitable.?

This seems like a false economy when you can buy liquid inhibitor specifically for the purpose and with know characteristics for £15.

.andy

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[John Stumbles]

[my cue I think]

I use a cheap pump-up garden sprayer with its hose cut and adapted to get to something I can connect to where the filling loop goes, and pump in a bottlefull of inhibitor (trying not to let air get in, to save having to bleed again) and then a bottlefull or 2 of water to get the remaining bit of inhibitor through. Apart from saving (tum te tum ... er ...) quite a bit compared to the stuff in a tube it gives me the choice of different makes of stuff and I can use it for sludge remover or whatever as well as inhibitor.

-- John Stumbles

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-+ 1. There's no such thing as a free lunch. 2. The more something seems like a free lunch the more expensive it is.

[Ed Sirett]

The Betz-Dearbourn products (Sentinel X series) are number 2 in the brand pecking order and will cost about 10 (inc VAT) per dose.

I have no reason to beleive that the Purimachos stuff for Sentinel>Purimachos>Homebase>Wickes. The pricing is Homebase>Fernox>Sentinel>Wickes>Purimachos(@screwfix)

[IMM]

You can fit a filler pipe with a compression cap on it, anywhere in the system. Use this to fill the system using a funnel and the cheaper Fernox. It will work out cheaper overall inc fitting the filler pipe.

[Andy Hall]

True, except that you do have to depressurise the system unless you can isolate the expansion vessel.

.andy

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[IMM]

If you are filling the system with inhibitor, then rep;lacing all the existing water with clean water is advisable.

[N. Thornton]

Re the high price of some central heating corrosion inhibitors:

I guess thats where the chem folks come in. From what I know I'd be surprised if there was any incompatibility with it, but confirmation first is best.

Regards, NT

[RDD]

If you were to sell a gallon of tap water, you could not package , label, and distribute it for less than a £1 per gallon & that is before the wholesaler and retailer get their hands on the prices!!

RDD