Combi boiler on council grant.

Hi all,
My parents are having a new combi boiler fitted under a heating renovation grant. The plumber is charging 2,645 for this which I feel is a smidgen extreme. Anyway, he's been to look at the property and has stated that he cannot remove the hot water tank as "there isn't the space to get it out"! He's kidding surely? Never mind that being part of the work he's being paid for.
My parents also wanted to give me the old boiler to replace my no longer working lump. He's told them he "must take it away", which is surely theft if they've asked him not to?
What does the team think?
Many thanks in advance. -- --- Crippen. The Cutest Cat In The World. ---- <No further Sig., I am saving your bandwidth.> E&OE
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On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:11:06 +0100, "Crippen"

If it's just for swapping the boiler, probably.

Is this cylinder removal in the quote? He is certainly going to have to do some plumbing work in the area of the cylinder if he is going to re-use old pipe connections to hot taps.
It is then very little work to empty and disconnect a cylinder. If the thing has been built around with woodwork and walls (I have seen this) then it is a simple matter to collapse the cylinder with a wet/dry vacuum cleaner - the copper is quite thin.

Whether you want it is one matter. If it is being replaced, it can't be up to much.

This means that he is going to sell it or use it, or somebody in officaldom somewhere is a benificiary in some way.

.andy
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On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:11:06 +0100, Crippen wrote:

Assuming he has drained it, brute force and big hammer should make it small enough to get out.

Was there any sort of trade in as part of the deal?
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In John Armstrong typed: : On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:11:06 +0100, Crippen wrote: : :> Hi all,:> :> My parents are having a new combi boiler fitted under a heating :> renovation grant. The plumber is charging 2,645 for this which I :> feel is a smidgen extreme. Anyway, he's been to look at the property :> and has stated that he cannot remove the hot water tank as "there :> isn't the space to get it out"! He's kidding surely? Never mind that :> being part of the work he's being paid for.: : Assuming he has drained it, brute force and big hammer should make it : small enough to get out.
Quite, what if it failed in it's normal life? surely a decent plumber would be able to change the tank?
:> My parents also wanted to give me the old boiler to replace my no :> longer working lump. He's told them he "must take it away", which is :> surely theft if they've asked him not to?: : Was there any sort of trade in as part of the deal?
No, it's a complete boiler replacement with 80% grant from the council. Nothing more. I've not seen the actual quote but it all sounds a little dodgy. -- --- Crippen. The Cutest Cat In The World. ---- <No further Sig., I am saving your bandwidth.> E&OE
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John Armstrong

I would contact the council and point out these concerns to them. They will take a dim view of any approved contractors extracting the michael. Also, ask them for their list of approved contractors and get quotes from a few others, so you can compare with others. It's not unusal for these guys to be cowboys and to be struck of the approved list.
hth Suzanne
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On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:11:06 +0100, a particular chimpanzee named
produced:

Sometimes removal of the old equipment is part of the grant in order to 'remove' the less efficient item from circulation. If you do replace your own boiler, the new boiler must have a minimum efficiency rating of 78%.
--
Hugo Nebula
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A place I looked at buying three years ago had an interesting immersion heater (I assume this is what you mean by the hot water tank). The vendor kindly told me that to remove it, a wall had to be dismantled. This was one of the factors that contributed towards my decision not to buy that place.
On the other hand, if you mean the header tank, then if it is anything like the original one here, then that will be fun when I remove it. Angle grinder job I reckon. Given the size of it, it must have been installed before the roof was put on.

I had the opposite problem when I had my boiler done this summer. The plumber offered to remove it (which he did for the immersion). The boiler is still sitting in the drive.

Adrian
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Is this the hot water storage tank, or the header tank? One is made of thin copper and is easily crushed or cut up - and it also has some value as scrap. The header tank on the other hand is frequently inaccessible, heavy and worthless.
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In wrote: :> Anyway, he's been to look at the property and has :> stated that he cannot remove the hot water tank as "there isn't the :> space to get it out"! He's kidding surely? Never mind that being :> part of the work he's being paid for.: : Is this the hot water storage tank, or the header tank? One is made of : thin copper and is easily crushed or cut up - and it also has some : value as scrap. The header tank on the other hand is frequently : inaccessible, heavy and worthless.
It's the Hot Water Storage Tank, that copper thing in the well known & loved airing cupboard. Generally fitted with an electrical coil for water heating. My elderly (76) mother was also looking fwd to a colder, yet bigger, storage area. I still feel that as they are old school polite, respectable, children of the 1920's people. That they are being taken advantage of is quite nauseous. Is there any legal recourse? & what does it suggest about council approved contractors? -- --- Crippen. The Cutest Cat In The World. ---- <No further Sig., I am saving your bandwidth.> E&OE
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Have you tried speaking to the maintenance manager at the council to see what they *are* being paid to do ?
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Since removing a disconnected and empty one of these is near child's play, I wonder if they're intending still leaving it connected to the new system in some way?
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Crippen wrote:

This seems more like a quote from BG than a local independant. The maximum over generous estimates for work involved is as follows:
1) Remove old boiler and dispose (unless the boiler was only a few years old there would be little life left in it and certainly not worth the expense of refitting elsewhere). The principal cost of fitting a boiler is the fitter's time not the boiler. Beside there is a recommendation from CORGI not to refit old boilers which our friend has upped to 'never'. 1/2 day.
2) Flush out the old system and add TRVs as needed to bedrooms and other cooler rooms. 1/2 day.
3) Upgrade external controls easily done by fitting a 30 quid programmable thermostat - which saves 30 quid not having to buy a boiler clock! 0 - 1/2 day depending on cabling.
4) Install new combi boiler adding a mains cold feed to and DHW feed back to HW. The odds are the boiler was and is to be located in the kitchen where the HW and mains CW are already nearby. The odds are the flue will be using the standard kit. 1/2 - 1 day assuming worst case plumbing and flueing.
5) Drain & cut up and remove hot and cold storage tanks and cylinders. Dispose. Connect mains cold to CW to bathroom, block off HW pipe originally from cylinder. Replace WC float valve to high pressure. Check for leaks on plumbing now subject to mains pressure.
Alternative: leave the storage tank to supply WC if pipework permits, or leave CW pipework completely untouched (deprecated option). 1 day.
6) Make good old flue hole - balanced flue type likely - brickwork + foam fill + plywood inside. 1/2 day
7) Flush out (hot) CH pipework using chemicals, commision boiler, fill in guarantees & log book coreectly. Refill with inhibitor. 1/2 day.
8) Upgrade gas main - maybe - 1 day.
Materials: 1 Vaillant Turbomax+ 824e + standard flue 650 Programmable t/stat, TRVs, pipe fittings, pipe sundries Chemicals, wire, electrical fittings.      Grinder disks, shark saw blades etc.             say 200      Waste removal (scrap metal goes for free round here) max 100                      Expensive flueing options                add 150 Labour 4-6 days very generously estimated. at 200/day     800-1200 Possibly VAT on the labout                      140-210          That comes to 1750 - 2510 depending on the options. I have been very generous with all the estimating here and would know I'd be safe except in very exceptional circumstances to quote 1800.
If your parents want the old boiler I would have thought that he would be only too pleased to cooperate. I would insist on getting the cylinder - to lubricate the disposal of the rest of the waste. Draw your own conclusions.
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On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 13:11:06 +0100, "Crippen"

the make?. Would similar comments be made if it was a solicitor giving some kind of quote for a service?
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Even more so.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:10:09 +0100, tarquinlinbin

I am sure that most tradesmen are entirely honest, but then it's like "no news is good news" so you wouldn't expect the details of the thousands of jobs that are done well and at a fair price to appear here. Generally, it is when there are problems or potential problems that people write - especially when a price seems a bit high as it was here.
Regarding solicitors, I have some very good ones who represent good value for money. I also know of a number who are lazy, inept and overcharge - they don't get my repeat business.
The same is true of any of the traditional professions - some good practitioners, some dishonest, some appallingly bad but hiding behind their perceived status. That goes for doctors, bank managers, teachers or any other.
I have a really good personal bank manager who focuses on having good business and personal relationships with his customers. He is extremely successful as a result and if he were to ever join another bank I am quite certain that 90%+ of his customers would go with him.
To me, it's all about good service and integrity whatever I am buying.
.andy
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Absolutely. They are the worst crooks of all. And no guidelines anywhere for their charges. They just think of a number, double it and add 100. You get bad people in all walks of life. Tradesmen, as v necessary people, you come into contact with more often than others, that's all.
Suzanne
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