Central heating upgrade

[Rachel Holley]

I'm in the process of buying a late 60s semi, and the homebuyer's report has flagged up that the central heating system is old and hasn't been updated for a long time, and will probably need substantial repairs soon and/or replacing with a newer efficient system.

This is our first house, so we're not really sure what kind of costs that will entail. We can't really ask a plumber to come and give us quotes because we're not in the house yet. I'm guessing the current boiler is roughly 1980s, with a hot water tank. We would probably want to get a nice efficient boiler (Condensing?), plus a new main thermostat and thermostatic radiator valves put on the existing radiators.

Does anyone have any idea what the likely cost might be? Just a ballpark figure, like will it cost us =A320, =A32000 or =A32000000?

[cynic]

I would start by having a survey done by someone who knows something about central heating not a cover my arse all purpose homepack surveyor

[Roger Mills]

Well, you can rule out your lowest and highest extremes!

A lot depends on whether a new boiler can easily be slotted in in place of the existing one, or whether a lot of pipework mods will be needed. But in ballpark figures, you should be looking somewhere between £2k and £5k - hopefully towards the lower end of that range.

Incidentally, I see no reason not to get quotes for work on a property which you don't yet own. Finding the likely cost of remedial work needed is all part of the negotiating process.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats so you can knock the price down. Its a bargaining point.

Well none of that is instantly NECESSARY.

A 1980s boiler should still be OK, and any efficiency gains need=20 balancing against the actual cost of a new boiler.

You are looking in the 1500-5000 range to upgrade a CH system, depending =

on how far you go.

I.e. I would ALWAYS unless it was a bachelor flat, ditch a combi and put =

in a mains pressure hot water tank, and a water softener, and,=20 depending on the layout, some form of CH zoning, even if it is only TRV=20 stats..

But Id put it off until the sums said it would pay back..

[BigGirlsBlouse]

Thats so you can knock the price down. Its a bargaining point.

Well none of that is instantly NECESSARY.

A 1980s boiler should still be OK, and any efficiency gains need balancing against the actual cost of a new boiler.

You are looking in the 1500-5000 range to upgrade a CH system, depending on how far you go.

I.e. I would ALWAYS unless it was a bachelor flat, ditch a combi and put in a mains pressure hot water tank, and a water softener, and, depending on the layout, some form of CH zoning, even if it is only TRV stats..

But Id put it off until the sums said it would pay back..

definitiely ditch the combi...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Called covering their arse since they don't know. You'll probably have had the same about the wiring and roof, etc.

It really depends on just how well the original installation was done. If it was state of the art at the time, a new boiler, TRVs and some simple mods might bring it up to date. If a poor installation and badly maintained it might need total replacement.

[Davey]

If it's working then leave it as it is for the time being but as someone else said, use the state of the heating system to get the price of the house down.

If it has a working boiler and feed and return pipework, then spend a couple of hundred quid getting a programmable thermostat, and fit TRV's to all the rad's except where the main 'stat is located.

Before it get's too cold, put some central heating cleaner in the system and run for a few days. Drain off, take off all rads and flush out with hose in garden. Replace. Fill system, run, flush, fill, run, flush, put inhibitor in, then fill.

That should save you a few quid in running the heating and achieve a warmer house with few if any cold or hot spots.

[David]

Is it right to say that the system could just need cleaning, controls updated* and everything properly insulated etc?

*If it can be converted to a fully pumped system the convert it to a "S" plan or "Y" plan maybe..

Just wanted to know because I get asked this type of question sometimes.

[YAPH]

Ballpark £2500-£3000 for new boiler, TRVs & new controls, install, flush rads etc.

[meow2222]

If its really 1980s then unless its a cast iron exchanger boiler, it should be fine to leave it in service more or less indefinitely. Cast iron exchanger boilers have terrible efficiency (50%ish) and would need replacement, somewhere in the 1-3k region. If at the same time you replaced the rest then a bit more. Whether you'd want to depends on the design and condition of whats there.

IOW its datedness is not a cause for any concern... but if cast iron then replace.

NT

[Dave Liquorice]

Aye.

As it's an old house with presumably little done to it. Spending a couple of hundred quid on upping the loft insulation will save more than a programable stat and TRV's...

First step, check if the system needs all that. It might have been maintained and/or have inhibitor already. Ask the vendors a vague question about any work/maintenace done at the property *before* you suggest a lowering of the price due to the work required on the heating.

[Davey]

I did the above to my folks heating last year and it really improved the heat output from the rads. They live in a 1960's bungalow with a twenty plus year old boiler.

If you have a working boiler as a heat source, then it's still a heat source weather it's a condensing super modern one, or an eighties job. If you can close your eyes and feel heat from the rads, what does it matter?

Personally, I wouldn't change a working boiler for a newer more efficient one unless the old one had poor efficiency, and I mean REALLY poor. By the time you've got your money back on a new boiler installation it'll be knackered and need replacing again, so you'll never catch up with making your money back from the improved efficiency. If it's broken beyond economic repair, then I'd swap it out.

If a new boiler saved you £200 a year on gas bills, then it'd take ten years to make your money back on a £2k installation. Will the new condensing boiler still be servicable in ten years?

[Davey]

True nuff. But doing both would improve everything moreso :)

Expecting an honest answer from someone trying to sell their house would be optimistic to say the least. They'll say "oh yeah, it's always been well maintained" when you ask them, because they know you won't be in the house long enough to check if it was true or horse-shit. By the time you find out the truth, it'll be too late. Hoping for the best and expecting the worst would be best in this (and any other house sale) instance.

I live in a 8 n' 1/2 year old house and there had never been any inhibitor in the heating. Only when I took the rads and flushed them out did I see how much shit there was in the system from build up of deposits. If you DIY a flushout of the rads and system from the earliest instance of buying a house, you'll know it's history and can work from that reference point.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Which is why its seldom worth doing more than making things LOOK as though they have been well maintained when selling a house. People wont pay more for things you cant prove, so why do them?

>

[Dave Liquorice]

A surprising number of people are honest, also ask for the last couple of bills as proof. They are quite often available and are produced, after all it is in their interest to show that the maintenace has taken place. In this case it counters some of the reduction in price, hence asking all questions (and getting the answers) before making a lower offer.

[Bob Eager]

Just to add to the other replies....get several quotes.

And avoid British Gas - they are incredibly expensive and (IMHO) not that good (they just contract out).

I got three quotes for ours - new boiler and some other work. Local (trusted) man was 1900, and another local firm 1850. BG wanted 3200! Oh, and BG quoted for what would have been an undersized boiler.

[TheScullster]

"Rachel Holley" wrote

This is our first house, so we're not really sure what kind of costs that will entail. We can't really ask a plumber to come and give us quotes because we're not in the house yet. I'm guessing the current boiler is roughly 1980s, with a hot water tank. We would probably want to get a nice efficient boiler (Condensing?), plus a new main thermostat and thermostatic radiator valves put on the existing radiators.

Does anyone have any idea what the likely cost might be? Just a ballpark figure, like will it cost us £20, £2000 or £2000000?

*******************************

FWIW, I had a similar job done 2 years ago. New boiler - Worcester Bosch Greenstar 24Ri New pump + isolating valves + zone valves, some piping re-work to split to upstairs and downstairs zones, 2 programmable wireless stats, hot water timer. £3750 IIRC east yorkshire. Main problem at the time was getting plumbers interested to quote and not put in silly price. The "little guys" were less interested cos it needed electrical work and they were all running scared of Part P element. If the re-furb comprises wholesale replacement of electrics, then advisable to get Part P documentation (this is mandatory for complete new systems).

HTH

Phil

[Tim S]

Rachel Holley coughed up some electrons that declared:

Stop worrying - you need to make your own decisions, not base everything off a HomeBuyers report, which to be honest is more or less worthless.

If you want to sleep soundly, then one thing you can do is to get a Corgi/Gassafe chap round and ask for a gas safety check on the whole system, including (and be sure to ask) a "gas tightness test" (pipes leak?), and ask that the boiler flue and room ventilation requirements be positively checked.

Should be around the 100-150 quid mark. Asking for a boiler service at the same time might be an idea (give it a good clean out).

If that all passes as OK, then do what you want when you want. Run the boiler for a year and if everything is working reliably, don't bother doing anything, until it suits you.

As others have said, you may find you can use your money more wisely with some more insulation or other energy saving measures.

Cheers

Tim

[Roger]

The message

from [e-mail] contains these words:

This is nonsense. The metal the heat exchanger is made of is not the main determinant of boiler efficiency.

If you know what the boiler model is sedbuk.com will probably tell you how efficient it is. They acknowledge a class of old boiler with an efficiency as low as 55% but they do not appear to list any gas fired boilers at less than 65% and features such as electronic ignition (no permanent pilot light) and fan assisted flue (both available before the end of the 80s) could push the efficiency up to the mid - high 70s, cast iron heat exchanger not withstanding.

The move away from cast iron may have had more to do with weight and durability (cast iron lasts almost for ever) than increased efficiency.

[meow2222]

The metal is very relevant. Cast iron can only be cast in relatively heavy coarse lumps, so in a given physical boiler size you dont get anything like the same amount of finning and thus surface area with a cast iron exchanger. That adversely affects efficiency. Then youve got the relatively large thermal capacity of the iron casting, which again adversely affects effieicncy on a bang-bang controlled boiler, as almost all domestic boilers are (ie on or off rather than modulated).

You can look up the efficiency of your boiler model, but if the exchanger is cast iron, prepare to be disappointed.

NT