Ceiling spots - threading cables

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The glass bit is sealed. The cap - whether ES or BC is simply glued on to that.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 11:15:53 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman wrote:

Still got the seal betwixt wires and glass though. How ever I don't think that failure of the seal is the problem, just simple overheating.
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Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
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norm wrote:

Yes. I had loads of them in the old house, and long with 30W strip filament tubes, they were the fastest blowers.
The 40W candles have now replaced them as the 'big stock' items.
60W bayonet and screws seem to be average, the LV spots seem to be outstanding.
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IKEA have started doing Compact fluorescent versions of these. They are stated as 25W equivalent, but are flood lamps rather than spot lamps (which for general lighting might be better). They start off very dim though -- full brightness in around a minute probably (don't have one here to time it). You would have to remove the dimmer of course.
--
Andrew Gabriel

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Can't live without the dimmer I'm afraid! Got one in every room except the bathroom. Essential items, especially if you have other lighting in the room like lamps.
Thanks for the suggestion though!
F./
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kind
I think the term is "SES" - "Small Edison Screw" as per the inventor Edison.

joy.
One idea out there is a "zero cross switch" device which waits until the mains is near the zero volt axis before switching on. This ensures that the bulb is not shocked when the lightswitch is used and the mains happens to be at its maximum voltage.
Contact me for further details and I'll dig out the small article in an electronics magazine I have festering in my loft. You'll have to be savvy with simple electronics of course or find someone to build the circuit for you. Otherwise there are zero cross triac opto-isolators that could probably do the same job.
HTH
Mungo
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Edison.
Ah, cheers!

Gotcha. I'm pretty electronic savvy, so I know exactly what you are getting at. Never heard of it before, and I couldn't find any google links for it in relation to lighting.
I was hoping that the dimmer would do the same thing...I've never cracked one open, but I assume they work in series, so by getting a dimmer that only goes up and down (no on/off toggle), the voltage should be ramped up more gradually. Anecdotally, it may have improved it slightly but I wasn't taking notes, so I can't really say for sure.

Is it a replacement for the switch, or an in-line thing? I quite like my dimmers, and don't really want to lose them! Would save you digging around the nether regions of "the messy place"... ;-)
F./
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getting
in
So am I :-)
But surely the whole point of a dimmer is to dim the rms seen by the light / filament. The ONLY way to regulate the RMS (using TRIACS whitch is the standard today, easy cheap...) is to delay the time after cross over before you fire the triac because when you have fired the triac there is no way to turn the thing off before the voltage accros it gets very near zero where it turns it self off again. You then need to fire it again somewhere on the rising slope (or the falling slope) depending of what rms you want your load to see...
Zero cross over detection is very usefull when using a triac as a on / off switch because if you fire the triac just after the cross over thereis very little harmonic distortion because the voltage seen by the load is rising to fast. If you time it fast enough you can doo with very little filtration if any at all because there will be no noise at all. If i remember correctly you need approximately 8 - 10V accros the triac to turn on and stay on, so you usually fire at cross over and keep the trigger on until the triac can lock...
To short time and the triac won't lock, to long time and you're wasting energy driving the triac when it isn't necessary...
The rise time of modern triacs are very fast and creates quite alot of noise when triggered somewhere between cros overs so needs quite a lot of filtration...
If you wan't true sinewave seen by the load and be able to dim it you need to use a mosfet push - pull stage and then drive it acordingly to your load, but this gets very complicated and looses quite alot of energi in the driver / mosfets but it is dooable...
Did this make sense???
/Morten
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/
before
to
it
load
All true for a *warm* filament which is at high resistance. Try shocking a cold filament which has low resistance and see how the coils react...
The gadget I described was not intended for use with a dimmer.
I suppose we could devise circuitry to ensure that the filament was "warmed" by letting the first dozen or so mains cycles through to it and then do the "dimmer" effect after this 0.25 second.
Mungo
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/
before
to
it
load
So you are basically doing the same as digital pulse code modulation in the AC realm? That's sick! :-)

Mostly, yes. Brought back a lot of suppressed lectures of stuff I've never used since then!
It all seems a little complicated though, especially for a problem with kitchen lights. More suited for a nuclear power plant or something else needing a lot of control!
Cheers for the idea though!
F.
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Ro wrote:

If you want to do the best job, consider ripping the whole ceiling down and wiring it, then replacing the plssterboard and skimming.
It is probably a less ardous job than threading cables around and drilling joists with righ nagled drills etc.
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I'd say this is unlikely - the floor and ceiling will share the same joists.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Thanks for the suggestions.
The floor above is concrete, so it's not dependent on the ceiling joists for support. I reckon it might be possible that there would be space between it and the ceiling to thread wires (I hope!).
If I did need to make a few extra holes in the ceiling to negotiate the joists, is there a simple way to fill them without having to replaster the ceiling?
Thanks,
Ro
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 01:42:42 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman

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|Thanks for the suggestions. | |The floor above is concrete, so it's not dependent on the ceiling joists |for support. I reckon it might be possible that there would be space |between it and the ceiling to thread wires (I hope!). | |If I did need to make a few extra holes in the ceiling to negotiate the |joists, is there a simple way to fill them without having to replaster the |ceiling? | (don't top-post)
This is what I did...
Near the existing light cable, I made a hole big enough to get my hand through (approx 4 inches, mine was square and I only cut 3 sides to make a sort of hinge). Inside the ceiling now, I fixed the transformer to the nearest joist using the hole for access, and wired it into the existing feed. Then, inside the hole, I measured the space to the joist I wanted to hop under first. Repeat this measurement on the underside of the ceiling and, from below, cut (stanley knife) the plasterboard across the joist. Pull the wire through, under the joist, tape it the end of a coathanger, and push it along to the next joist. Now you know the distance between joists you can cut small feed trenches exactly where you want, and feed the low-voltage cable around/across the ceiling. As you progress, the holes you make for each downlighter help with the feeding process too. I ended up with a series of holes which were each the size of a small nail-file, - easy to fill with polyfilla. You can fill the hinged acess hole by pulling it down slightly higher than flush, gluing, and then 2 thin layers of polyfilla or plaster top-coat, sanding in-between, before painting.
Might be a bit of a heath-robinson solution, but it took me less than a day for 12 downlighters and nobody can see anythng but a smooth ceiling. The low voltage can easily have a 2" bit of filler over it without risking fire or damage.
Hope it helps a bit.
--
Howard Coakley
e-mail... howard<dot}coakleyatcoakley<dot].codotuk
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Ro wrote:

Yes. If you cut the holse carefully, you can refit the cuit bits with something tacky or even bonding plaster, and set em back a bit, and then skim the surface with PolySkim.
You will need to repaint tho.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I like the idea of the small cuts at the joists, and covering with polyfilla. I had visions of having to cut huge chunks out of the ceiling to drill joists.
With a bit of luck, I'll be able to thread the wires around with hitting too many joists. It's a pretty small room, and only 6 lights.
Will keep you posted.
Ro

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Ro wrote:

Ive done this more than once. Cut out small channels over the joists, notched em, and threaded wires over the plasterboard and under the nothced joists. Tack with a p-clip and bodge the holes away later.

Its nopt too bad.

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wrote:

Not so in more modern developments, where the joists are suspended from the concrete above via buffers designed to reduce the transmission of impact noise.
I've installed lighting in a couple of these flats using a steel tape measure to get a string through the 15 - 20mm gap above the joists, then using the string to draw the cable.
I also suspended the transformers, using strong rubber bands, in order to reduce any buzzing.
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That's interesting. I was hoping there would be a gap between the top of the joists and the floor above. One slight concern is that this is a not so new building. it looks about 10-15 years old, but is actually 23 years old.
Anyhow, with all the suggestions, I should find a method that works. I haven't actually moved in yes, and so can only speculate.
We'll see
Ro

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