wiring question Knob and Tube

[Rick F.]

Point taken.. This place we bought was in fact very poorly maintained over the years -- of course we got a good price on it and would buy another one if given the opportunity (8->

[mm]

Thanks.

[cavedweller]

I know of three occasions recently where insurance agents have solicited information, at policy renewal time, on electrical service capacity and wiring type, plumbing supply type (iron vs copper), and heating system including specifics of furnace age, fuel oil storage (tank age, irrespective of condition).

In one case, inspection of one property was undertaken at the insurance agent's request/suggestion under the pretext of "making sure that coverages were adequate".

If they don't ask, then I suggest you don't tell.

[Bud--]

What about old 60 degree Romex that was commonly burried in insulation and carried both conductors together. Both conductors generated heat, and were adjacent if insulation failed. Maybe Romex should be replaced.

IMHO insurance restrictions on K&T are largely the latest redlining scheme.

a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. At the time of the report, adding insulation was permitted some places, not in others.

-- bud--

[Speedy Jim]

Bookmarked !!!

What a great find!

I snipped this from it as part of the history and origin:

"Mr. Sargent had no knowledge of fire loss data pertaining to this amendment, and suggested that the code change may have been a preemptive move based on the original design of knob-and-tube wiring. In this view, knob-and-tube wiring was designed to function in free air , and thus encasement in an insulating material represents a practice contrary to the original design."

HaHa A "pre-emptive move" based on little more than hot air.

Jim

[RBM]

Fantastic find Bud, You're a truth detector!!

I'm keeping a copy for future debates

[hallerb]

Anyone fighting the K&T issue.

How old is you car? Appliances in home?

Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment they have their home/

[RBM]

People generally replace things when they no longer function properly or as originally intended. Unlike appliances and automobiles, wiring systems have no moving parts. a better analogy might be an antique vase or painting, which if kept in the proper environment should last a very long time. Some old wiring systems, including K&T are not in good working order and should be replaced. Some have been modified in ways that make them dangerous, and should be replaced. Some are in perfectly good working condition, and can be left to do what they've been doing

Anyone fighting the K&T issue.

How old is you car? Appliances in home?

Funny how folks think nothing of repacing vehicle every 5 years but spaze about upgrading and maintaing pro0bably the biggest investment they have their home/

[N8N]

I can't imagine not wanting good insulation, esp. with fuel costs the way they are today. I'll be doing my upstairs as soon as it warms up enough to rewire. The second floor of my house, which has uninsulated frame walls, is a good 5 degrees colder (62 vs. 67 degrees) than the downstairs, which is masonry - and it's only in the mid-30s here.

In my case it's not an issue that there's K&T in the walls; the wiring is old cloth covered non-metallic. the issue is that the wiring is ungrounded and I want to split the floor into two different circuits and add the now-required bathroom circuit, and just don't want to mess around fishing wire through cellulose.

nate

[Bud--]

I wish I was that smart. The link came Phil Munro in a post to this newsgroup about a half year ago.

The other link Phil posted is:

is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because tne insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

But I'm sure this is all made irrelevant by hallerb's voluminous records of fires caused by K&T wiring.

-- bud--

[RBM]

Thanks, I'm scarping this one too. One of the things that left an impression on me when I first started working in the electrical field in 72', was how much work it was to install some of these old methods and materials, how meticulously these guys worked, and how well some equipment, including K&T held up over time. Here in downstate NY, we have four seasons, cold, hot, wet, damp, all the factors that would tend to break down and destroy this stuff, but I've rarely seen it in less than pristine condition. Much of the K&T I've removed or disconnected over the years, had nothing to do with its condition but rather, illegal taps and splices added to it. I realize that as a non grounded system, its usefulness is limited, as are a number of less demonized wiring materials, but the knee-jerk reaction it gets, in my opinion, is not deserved. I think folks like Hallerb, react to a perceived notion, rather than anything based in fact, then invent the fires, otherwise there would be substantial documentation to back up that claim

"Bud--" wrote in message news:5a12e$45eeef5a$4213eb9d$ [e-mail]...

[<josh]

Some companies do have a general age surcharge -- my own home has a "pre-1930" surcharge at the moment, until I&#39;ve finished some other upgrades and rewrite the policy. No surcharge for having K&T.

Many companies have a very general guideline such as "wiring that is obsolete, deteriorated, or in need of replacement." K&T is one obvious thing to look for, but it&#39;s not the only thing -- depending on the underwriting, they may decline coverage because of fuse panels, ungrounded circuits, aluminum wiring, etc.

[<josh]

Renewal is not always guaranteed, companies will occasionally re- underwrite their policies on renewal, usually if they&#39;ve had too many losses of a particular type and want to identify homes at risk for similar losses.

It&#39;s possible that was the real reason for the inspection, many people never tell their agent about remodeling or improvements, and end up significantly underinsured.

[RBM]

Makes perfect sense to me. I would expect that the older a house is, the closer its infrastructure should be examined

[Bud--]

I agree completely.

Over the years I have run across 1 failed K&T connection - a "cold" solder joint from the start.

-- bud--

[hallerb]

splder detoriates over time, espically if the joint gets hot.

[Bud--]

Solder was used for a long time before wirenuts. I have see only 2 failures. Both were "cold" joints (defective) when they were made.

But I eagerly await your documentation. You can just include it with your documentation of K&T fires.

-- bud--

[hallerb]

-

HOW DOES ONE INSPECT EVERY JOINT that are buried in walls, mostl likely behind lathe and plaster"?

Is living without grounds a good idea?

have you seen insulation detoriate with time?

I have it failed in a cieling mounted light here and could of easily burned down our home.

how old is your vehicle?

[RBM]

Yeah Bud, how old is your vehicle!!! Sometimes it&#39;s like talking to a stump

[Nate Nagel]

Well, my "new" car is 19 years old and my "old" car is 52 years old, but I guess I&#39;m "unusual." :)

nate