Water heater

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On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 16:12:24 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"

and there is no "pilot" standby loss with electric OR electronic ignition gas units. (which mine is NOT.)
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wrote:

I seriously doubt that the pilot light contributes very much in the winter or costs much in the summer compared to the standby losses of the tank as a whole
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They don't contribute to any loss - the heat from the pilot heats the water in the tank.
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which according to the poster I was responding to contributes to heating the house in the winter and as I said must therefore contribute to heating the house in the summer...which must be a loss (AC)
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Be careful of making assumptions based on where you live. It's quite common in moderate temp climates to have the hot water heater located outside the heating envelope of the house - i.e. in the garage.
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and anywhere that freezes the plumbing including water heater must be indoors.
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Not true in every location... Last winter we hit 30F below zero and our fully code compliant water heater is located in a non-heated garage. It was an unusually cold winter last year, but every winter it can and frequently does get close to zero at night. The heater is obviously insulated, as are the input and output water lines.
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wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, it isn't. "Code compliant" is another way of saying energy efficient.
Engineering a good house isn't just applying a few rules of thumb and calling it a day. In the case of a hot water heater, you need to look at the degree days for the location and decide if it makes sense to have the water heater located inside or outside of the thermal envelope.
In this case, we see far more "warm days" than we do "cold days", even with the extremes of temperatures. Given the price of electricity (used for cooling) and the price of propane (used for heating), it makes much more sense to have the heater located in the garage. Any ancillary heat loss serves to keep the insulated garage warmer in the winter and isn't fighting with the a/c in the summer.
The insulated tank itself isn't going to freeze - it's heated! The lines, correctly insulated and routed to the nearest insulated wall are likewise not going to freeze.
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wrote:

Not necessarily - code compliant means it meets code - which is "safety" related.

Degree days do not mean a thing when you have extremes. It can go above 92F in the summer and down to -20F in the winter - both for days on end. The degree days can be the same as somewhere where it stays above 30F and below 80F year round. Different construction is required - and definitely different plumbing practices.

Tell that to people who's pipes freeze on the outside wall of a heated interior space
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Right... That would explain the presence of minimum insulation standards.
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<stuff snipped>

Agreed. What happens if you're away and the pilot light or auto igniter fails? Won't be long before that "heated" tank loses its stored heat energy and freezes, especially in the Great White Way where the thermometer often dips way below zero F.
I think it's funny that some people are convinced that nearly all water heaters are located outside the living space. I've lived in 10 different places in the NE United States and not ONE of them had a water heater outside the living space. That's a good reminder that local solutions are often not scalable to the whole wide world.
As for pilot light gas consumption we've discovered that it's very, very small and not worth it to go with an igniter because the water heater has heated our bedroom (gallon jugs) and bathroom (the tub) during some serious long power outtages during the 100 year blizzards we've been getting every 10 years nowadays!
-- Bobby G.
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bob haller wrote the following:

Oh, shit. I have to move my water well, septic system, and dry well inside the house.
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
  Click to see the full signature.
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Wrong.
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wrote:

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All of the houses and some of the apartments I have lived in had the water heater located outside of the living space.
My only assertion was that of if it is an advantage in winter it is a disadvantage in the summer, and that hardly qualifies as an assumption
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Ours is in an unheated (and uninsulated) attic above the garage (a room that I'm currently finishing into a workshop).
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On Jun 5, 7:12pm, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" <atlas-

Yes it does. With a conventional tank gas water heater, most of the standby losses go up the flue. With an electric, there is no flue path up the middle of the tank where heat gets lost. There are also the direct vent type which use an inducer blower like high efficiency furnaces. Those would have very little standby loss up the vent path as well, more like electric ones.
However, the standby losses are not huge. I have a conventional gas water heater and the TOTAL cost to run it is maybe $15 a month. That includes all the water actually used, as well as standby loss. One of these days, if I remember, I'm going to log the gas meter before going away for a week and get an actual number.
Also, one of the more crazy things that always pops up here is the above claim that standby losses don't matter because they heat the house in winter. Even if all the standby losses did exit via the tank into the surroundings there are two major problems with that claim. One has already been pointed out, which is that if it helps in the winter, then it's a disadvantage in the summer, at least for those of us with AC. And second is that most water heaters are not in the living space itself. Hard to believe heat escaping my water heater in the unfinished basement is going to do much good heating the house.
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On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

today the basement is finished, heated, living space.
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wrote:

bedrooms, home theatres,home offices - etc.
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