Good article on wikipedia. I have a better idea what is going on. But
I do agree we should be able to determine what we want to use. I like
to save money on my electric bill as much as anyone else, but I also
need to see what I'm doing in my garage, or I could be more likely to
get injured or damage something when using tools. If I need
incandescents, it should be MY choice.
It said something in the article that lighting accounts for 40% of
energy use, but said "commercial buildings", and also stated that may be
a high estimate. In my home, I doubt my lighting uses more than 10% of
my electric usage. I have a well pump, heat tapes, elec space heater
(in one room, to save on propane), other elec heating devices, as well
as the usual refrigerator, washer, dryer, etc, and an elec water heater.
(Gas cook stove). And in summer I have an AC (which I only use on the
severe hot days). Either way, it's these heating devices that suck the
most power, and nothing much is being done to make them more efficient,
when they are the biggest electrical consumption users. [Of course,
there is only so many BTUs that can be obtained from one KWH of
electricity, and it dont look like much can be done to change that. I
did put an insulation "blanket" on my water heater which probably helps
I agree that LED will be the lighting of the future. I like it better
than CFL, but they are still costly (but getting better in price). I
have a LED in my outdoor porch light, and like it. The CFLs would not
work well in cold temps, but the LED is fine. That LED only uses
something like 6 watts, which means I dont mind leaving it on much of
the night for safety (if I come home late). I can run that LED for 10
hours for what it used to cost for a 60W incandescent to be on for 1
hour. I figured out that if it's on 10 hours per night, I use about
2KWH per month, which costs me 25 to 30 cents per month. Not a bad
deal! [Divided by ten, a 60W incan would have cost around $3.00 per
But the LEDs have some limitations too. I bought one for my bedroom
light fixture. The fixture is what some people call "Boob Lights"
(shaped like a woman's boob). The fixture uses a single bulb. The LED
only illuminates half the room, because the light only comes out of the
top of the bulb. That did not work. I had to go back to a CFL. That
light is on more hours than any other light in the house, so I wanted to
change it. My alternative is to buy a new fixture,(made for several
bulbs), or just live with the CFL for now.
The bottom line is that there are different bulbs for different uses,
and WE should be able to use what we want, while the govt. EDUCATES US
about efficient uses, not FORCES us to use bulbs that dont work for the
And still, lighting with CFL or LED saves money, but the biggest uses of
electricity are other uses, such as heating, and there seems to be
little means to cut down on that....
And getting back to the original topic of this thread, if a water saving
washing machine is not going to clean my clothes properly, I surely am
not saving anything..... just having to deal with aggravation and
smelling like an old goat..... I cant possibly see how clothes can get
clean without being submerged in water. Especially when I my clothes
get covered with mud and automotive crud after fixing my car.
On Sunday, January 4, 2015 9:41:09 PM UTC-5, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
They have done a lot to improve efficiencies of most of those
things on your list. The AC and refrigerator, for example, are a lot
more efficient today than they were 30 years ago. Back then, 10 SEER
was the common AC. Today it's more like 14 and you can get 18 if you
want to pay more. The problem is, as you point out, that you can only
improve efficiencies so much, it becomes a declining benefit for a lot
more cost problem, and you're running up against the limits of physics.
Bingo. If new technology is good, cost effective, and works, people
don't need to be forced to adopt it.
I noticed you only mentioned COOLING devices. Yes, they have improved
somewhat. Much only becuse of better insulation. And they claim some
motors are more efficient, and I suppose there is some truth to that.
But when it comes to heating devices, there are only so many BTUs in a
watt, and it CANT be improved. Heating devices are my biggest drain in
cold weather. My elctric bill in winter is at least $200 more than in
summer. But I do use an electric space heater almost all the time,
because I cant tolerate 55 to 60 deg in the house, and it would use too
much propane to heat the whole house to 70deg. I just heat one room
with the electric space htr to around 70, and stay in there most of the
But I also have heat tapes on pipes, and other heating devices to keep
stuff from freezing. And being a farm, I have livestock tank heaters
too, and they are a big draw. There is no way around most of this.
A neighbor bought one of those infared space heaters advertised on TV,
and said they use much less electric than a conventional "hot coil" type
of heater. They have heat lamps (bulbs) inside and a small fan blows
the hot air out. She was bragging how efficient they are. Then I was
talking to her landlord, who pays the electric bill, and he was bitching
about her electric bill doubling in winter...... Once again, you can
only get so many BTUs out of a watt of power.
About the only thing I have been able to do with heating devices is to
insulate more. Example, water heater blanket, foam insulation around
livestock tanks (which dont last long), and more insulation around heat
tapes. I also keep my space heater on the LOW setting, an shut it off
when I go away.
On Monday, January 5, 2015 3:39:34 PM UTC-5, email@example.com wrote:
It's not mostly insulation. There isn't any insulation that amounts
to anything in the typical compressor/condensor unit, ie the typical
ventral AC unit. The improvements have come from better compressor designs
and better coils.
That's true if it's resistance heat. But that's certainly not a
mainstream heating source, never has been. It's not true of heat pumps,
which are a form of using electric to heat. There we've made similar
gains in efficiency as in AC systems.
Heating devices are my biggest drain in
With propane, that's probably a reasonable option. But with NG,
if it cost me $200 more a month in electric to run a space heater
for one room, I'd be better off just keeping the whole house at the
I tried the electric space heater approach last winter. Like you found,
the electric bill went up substantially, enough that I concluded I'm better off
burning NG in my 94% eff furnace. Of course the results will vary,
based on the cost of fuels.
I have an infrared heater. It does work and do what it claims to
do, but it's the type with a parabolic dish and no fan. It's very
good and efficient at heating whatever is right in front of it.
By doing that, it's not having to heat the whole room. The drawback
is that it's hard to get it pointed where you need it and even
then the heat isn't uniform. It's not at all suited to certain needs,
like when lying on a sofa watching TV.
Yes, having proper insulation, sealing drafts, can make a substantial
How is that supposed to work?????
Pretty soon we'll have to go back to the bucket and scrub board!
Oh well, there are lots of older washers around and they are not that
hard to fix. The timers seem to go first in most of them. Every washer
I have ever had to junk, because of major issues, always still had a
good motor. I always save them.....
I had one washer that I used for years with a dead timer. I just had to
advance the knob manually, Kind of a pain, but it did the job. The
timer was too costly to replace. I finally got another washer from a
relative who just wanted a new one, and he old one still worked fine.
I remember when new products were tested by experts and later by a panel
of selected consumers who were paid or given the product free for
It seems the latest trend is to just sell these new things to the
public, and let them suffer with poor products.
Just look at all the car recalls, some of which have been deadly. And
when it comes to software it's even worse. I've heard many times that
when a new operating system is relased, to avoid it for several months
until the bugs are worked out. Apparently they're now doing this with
appliances too, and even some building materials.
I guess it's not just because we live in the age of greed, but we live
in a time when the younger people cant exist without constant upgrades
which often do nothing. Then add to that all the stupid laws that keep
forcing products to change and often ruins a once good product.
On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 8:20:48 AM UTC-5, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I think you'll find that this is still done today, probably more
than it was 50 years ago.
In the case of washing machines, I would think the real problem is
govt regulations that limit the amount of water and electricity they
can use. It's hard to make a washing machine that works well and uses
little water and also make it cost the same as the basic model it
replaced. Front loaders use less water, but they have always been
more expensive. And they come with their own problems, the stinky
door seal being one.
Of course 50 years ago, there were few recalls because the manufacturers
could just ignore safety problems. The incidence of actual serious
accidents or deaths from those defects is very small compared to the
number of cars. I would suspect that 50 years ago those kinds of
things were just lost in the noise, considered normal, etc. And the
consequnces to the manufacturers was acceptable. They weren't worried
about 100 millon dollar lawsuits, the govt hitting them with fines,
the laws didn't even exit to cover that. Now if you have some minor
problem that affects 100 cars out of a million, it may get recalled.
It's hard to believe that greed is any more prevelant today than it was
100+ years ago.
On 1/6/2015 8:19 AM, email@example.com wrote:
that is now a piece of junk. It is a Motorola RAZR M. The latest OS
upgrade (actually downgrade) broke the phone. You now only get a few
hours out of the battery and it gets so hot that you have to take it out
of your pocket. I am not, buy any means a power user. And, Android won't
let you go back. Just fix it by buying a new phone. A Verizon guy
recently told me to only upgrade a new phone when you buy it and only
once after that, because the software is made for the newer more
powerful phone and will bog down older hardware. Was he right! Sorry for
the soapbox and hijacking.
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On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 10:01:08 AM UTC-5, Art Todesco wrote:
From what I know, you can go back to a previous version of the Android OS.
It may not be trivial to do, but if the phone is that bad, I'd look into
it. Some googling should be productive. There are various help and hack
forums that can probably guide you.
Did that phone come from the carrier? What do they say? Any chance it's
a bad battery issue and just a coincidence?
So far, I haven't had any problems with OS or app upgrades. But, I
know what you mean. Google released a new version of news and weather
app a few months ago. I like the way the current one works and still
haven't let it install the new version, because it's a very different
look/feel and I'm not sure how I'll like it. From what I understand,
you can go back to the old version, if you can find the image file and
self install it.
On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 3:51:17 PM UTC-5, Art Todesco wrote:
If it's basically unusable as is, and you're probably going to get a
new phone anyway, then why does the risk of bricking it to try to fix
I also assume you went through all the apps, particularly things like
GPS, to make sure they aren't on? My Android, in the power settings,
you can see what is using the power. Did you try that to see what the
power hog is? Like maybe it's not the new OS perse, but somehow some
setting got changed in the process, the new OS let's some app run
that wasn't previously, etc?
involved and he had me do some other things I wasn't aware of. Sometimes
it's not too bad, but at other times, it's horrible. Last night it was
supposed to get down to single digits. The phone should help keep me warm!
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On Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:19:03 -0600, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote in
Or even better: skip it entirely unless it a) fixes a feature that you
need that is currently broken; or b) provides a new functionality that
you want to have. I'm still running WinXPsp3 and nothing since does
(a) or (b) for me. Of course, when my hardware dies I will likely be
forced to upgrade.
+1 on that.
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Regarding software updates, The Fidelity Financial website is almost imposs
ible to use compared to the previous version. When I complained to a local
Fidelity office worker about the web site, he said that they were getting
a lot of complaints. He also said that the new (crappy) website was put in
service just a couple of months after Fidelity got an award for the best f
inancial website. New and improved NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On Wednesday, January 7, 2015 11:29:49 AM UTC-5, email@example.com wrot
al Fidelity office worker about the web site, he said that they were gettin
g a lot of complaints. He also said that the new (crappy) website was put
in service just a couple of months after Fidelity got an award for the best
financial website. New and improved NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An example of that drives me nuts is the Microsoft Office Apps.
I only use them occasionally. They've gotten to the point where it's
almost impossible to do anything because they've changed them so much.
I'll be like probably 95% of the users, I don't use any of the advanced
features that they have piled on. And they changed the look/feel so
much that it's hard to figure out how to do the most basic stuff that
I want to do. Maybe the new features and look are great for someone
that's a power user and needs them, but it sure has screwed the rest of us.
Not sure what to tell you about that phone, and your company, but if the
phone is getting that hot, DO NOT USE IT. Just google some stuff about
exploding cellphone batteries.
I had a battery explode on a cordless tool once, and it's not just a
little bang. There were pieces all over the room, and a chunk of
plastic stuck in the skin on my arm, which I had to dig out and bandage.
It could have been much worse if it was an eye or ?????
Why not file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau!!!! (you can do
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