Tankless water heaters

"mike" wrote

Yes, yes, yes. Distance from the tank is critical, and can be designed in the construction phase. We are currently remodeling our kitchen. The builder had the hot water heater across the house, and we literally didn't have hot water in the kitchen for three years. Then we put in a 110v. 8 gallon hot water heater just the other day, and glorious hot water. I am going to put a small one in my shed for beer brewing. Point of use and distance from source is critical in any system.

Steve

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Reply to
Steve B
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They are VERY worth while if you are selling them. ;-)

They ARE actually cost effective in some situations. We do HOA analysis. I have seen several in clubhouse and pool house bathrooms under the sink, and in those situations where no one uses the water for sometimes hours and days at a time, and warm water is all that is needed, it is better than the currently high priced water heater and keeping water hot and ready for five minutes of use a day. And I mean SMALL ones.

Steve

Steve

Reply to
Steve B

I use Stiebel-Eltron mini point of use tankless water heaters when my wood boiler is not running. They work great and take 25 amps when running or drawing hot water. One under the kitchen sink and one under the bathroom sink/bath/shower. They work great since I don't use very much hot water; just a shower once a day and some dishes. Take no more than a toaster. The only detractor is if the power goes out, no hot water. Had it happen once while in the shower. Instant cold water. They are still about $150 each. Had mine for 4 years. If you have a really cold cellar you might need 2 in series for really hot water.

Reply to
LSMFT

On 11/10/2010 5:53 AM snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net spake thus:

Well, like I said, it was a guess on my part, hopefully an educated one. Your take is just as plausible; my point is that we really don't know, do we?

Here's one argument in favor of my thesis:

Consider the most ridiculous case possible, someone who only uses hot water once a day, say to wash their hands. In such a case, a tankless heater will fire up exactly once, while a tank heater will fire up several times during the day to maintain the tank's temperature. So it seems likely that a tankless heater could save fuel in such a case.

Now consider the opposite case: someone who runs hot water all day long for some strange reason. In such a case, both a tankless heater and a tank heater will be burning fuel all the time. The main difference here between them is the size of the burner: the tankless burner is a lot larger (think your oven's burner as compared to the tank heaters's stovetop burner). So again it seems likely that in such a case a tankless heater could use more gas for the equivalent usage. (Of course, the other difference is that the tank heater will eventually stop putting out hot water, unlike the tankless.)

So it seems likely that one could construct some kind of crude curve of comparative fuel costs vs. water usage.

But I don't know for sure. It's sure be nice to have some better information on the subject.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 05:13:59 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote Re Re: Tankless water heaters:

Good experiment.

Reply to
Caesar Romano

Heres another good experiment, offer a endless hot water shower to a teenager:( You will likely find them gabbing on their water resistant cell phone talking for hours:(

There are also the super high efficency condensing hot water tanks..... combustion occurs inside the water tank exhaust is super cool using PVC pipe.

they avoid the downsides of tankless and cost about the same

Reply to
hallerb

On 11/10/2010 2:31 PM snipped-for-privacy@aol.com spake thus:

Same as what? An ordinary tank-type water heater?

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

cost about the same as a tankless without the downsides.

like no hot water stored for instant use, or in a power failure, no delay waiting for burner to heat water, and still in 90% efficency like condensing furnaces. forgot name of heater:(

Reply to
hallerb

i'm glad you are happy

i felt the way you do when i first started the project

i feel lost again that i moved but know that i am not where i need to be

start collecting gossip about what folks are saying about the device

Reply to
Ala

Check out systems by a rating system that is standardised, E.F. Energy Factor and you will find a Btus are not Btus that are all equal from the standby loss. Tanks are mainly 55-65EF, tankless Ng start at 82 and go to 94

Reply to
ransley

The I guess im dreaming when I run my numbers of my 4-5 yr paybck with my Bosch tankless, I guess my bills are phony and a mistake.

Reply to
ransley

This isnt easy to explain but its what ive read and how I see it. If a tank is in heavy or constant use it makes a difference. A tankless for one or 2 will be run a few times a day, it uses energy and thats it, its off. A tank for one or 2 maintains that temp all day but so here is where a tankless pays back quickest. If a tank is in heavy near constant use since both systems burners are equaly efficient a tankless saves less in relation to a heavily used tank, the tank has less downtime where its not needed.

Reply to
ransley

Tankless coils are big enough to extract as much energy as possible, there are several Condensing tankless made that get 94-96 EF the exhaust is about 70f. The best tank is mabe 86 EF. . Its true tankless for a big family makes less sence. For many commercial uses it makes no sence when you figure that tankless cost many x more.

Reply to
ransley

And comdensinng tank still dont go over 82 EF, and the Condensing tankless ive seen are 94-96EF, a big savings in energy used, and I have both of them

Reply to
ransley

No. Physics 101 is your friend. ;-) Burning a given amount of methane releases the same amount of energy no matter how fast you burn it, assuming complete burning. Raising the temperature of a given amount of water the same number of degrees requires the same energy input no matter how fast you do it.

Possibly what's confusing you is that the tank heater burned slowly for a long time to heat the water, while the tankless heater burned fast for a short time. But at the same efficiency, they used the same amount of energy (gas or electric). And tank and tankless efficiencies overlap, so one or the other could be more efficient.

Your last (parenthesized) statement is not the "other difference". It's the critical difference. You have hypothesized a comparison between running hot water all day long and running barely lukewarm water all day long. Not surprisingly, running how water requires more energy than running lukewarm water.

If you change your comparison so that the experiment ends when the tank heater runs out of hot water, then both use the same amount of energy. Only the pattern of use is different: the tank heater used the energy before you started running the hot water, and the tankless used it while you were running the hot water.

Edward

Reply to
Edward Reid

the new condensing water heaters qualify for the fed tax rebate, they are over 90% efficent......

Reply to
hallerb

I recently installed a whole-house tankless HWH. So far, I like it a lot.

Some have mentioned the small per-faucet heaters. However, the ones mostly promoted now are central tankless. (So your question "are tankless cheaper than central" does not make sense. Most tankless HWHs are central, although as with tank HWHs, you can install multiples for convenience.)

I may save money, but I do not expect a useful ROI. I did it for convenience and to regain floor space. In my 1953 house, the original HWH was in the garage. When the garage was converted (a religion in this neighborhood), the HWH was moved to a utility room even farther away. It was then about 50' from the kitchen and bathroom, and it took nearly a minute to get hot water to either place. It was replaced once after that -- I think in 1991, but it's gone now and I didn't save the info. I suspect that in the original house it was gas, but when I bought the house it was electric. I had been keeping the temperature in the HWH just high enough to shower with hot only, and turning off the lower element entirely, so I had already minimized the energy cost of hot water. Plus it's a one-or-two person situation (two when I started thinking about it, one now), thus correspondingly less savings.

But the part of the house near the kitchen and bathroom simply didn't have any place for a WH. The crawl space and attic are too small -- a HWH on its side might have worked, but I'm not aware of any made to work that way. However, mounting a tankless unit on the wall just outside those rooms was trivial. And the cold, hot, and gas pipes were already in the crawl space (which is a generous, sit-up-in space).

So by switching to tankless, I would get much faster HW, and regain about ten square feet of floor space.

In late August, I learned that my city was currently doubling its usually $675 rebate for switching from electric to gas HW. The double rebate fund was nearly empty, so I had to move fast. In any case, the need for water (under pressure) and gas plumbing put it way outside DIY for me, so I located a contractor experienced in the installation who could do it quickly. He pulled the permit on the last day for the double rebates -- the permit date, not the completion date, determined eligibility. His bid was $2308, and I eventually got a $1350 rebate for the electric-to-gas switch (not related to going tankless).

Since I was in a hurry, I went with what the contractor had (Rinnai), rather than investigating extensively. Other brands I read about were Paloma (aka WaiWela?), Rheem, Tagaki, and Bosch (Aquastar).

The whole thing went smoothly for something distinctly non-trivial. Remember that I was moving the heater (so modifying cold and hot plumbing), tapping into gas plumbing, adding an electrical circuit (for the controller and igniter), removing the hold HWH, and capping the pipes that connected to the old HWH. The main electric panel is the original, and the electrician looked at it and said "I don't even know what kind it is" ... luckily it's a subpanel to a newer panel outside, where it was much easier to add the needed circuit. The HWH did not require a vent -- I'm not sure whether the inside models have to be vented (probably so). I gave the old HWH to a friend who was refurbishing a house for a low-income person.

I got a Rinnai V53e, the smallest in the Rinnai line:

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It is rated for 0.6 to 5.3 GPM at 35F rise, giving a claimed capacity of two simultaneous showers. With only one shower in my house, this was plenty. The low end turns out to be more of a limitation; I'd often like to have hot water at a lower flow.

Having the hot water flow so soon was great. However, I found it difficult to regulate what I wanted. I initially did not have the remote control, which had two disadvantages. First, I didn't know whether I was drawing water fast enough to activate the HWH except by waiting to see if I got hot water. Second, since the default temperature setting is 120F (and the only alternative 140F), I had to mix hot and cold for a shower. This meant I had to run the minimum amount of hot water PLUS some cold, and I normally don't run that much water for a shower. If I ran just enough hot to activate the HWH and then added cold, the back pressure from the cold would sometimes be enough to turn off the HWH. Changes in cold water temp still affected my shower temp. Overall it was a bit frustrating.

I found a remote control for half price and installed it myself. It's trivial -- the most complicated part was drilling a hole through my brick wall. Attached two wires to the HWH and the remote just started working, no setup needed. I love it. It's right next to the shower, so I set it for the temperature I want, turn on the hot water until the light shows me the HWH is active, and enjoy. Never turn on the cold water faucet at all. Output temp is very consistent. (Input temp surely varies depending on whether the water has been in pipes under the house, underground in the service lines, or in the water mains -- though it doesn't vary nearly as much in north Florida as it would a few hundred miles north of here.)

I can change the temp while I'm showering, in 2F increments from 90F to 110F. I have already found temps from 102F to 110F useful. In the summer I will probably go a little lower, but not much. Above 110F, increments are 5F, and you cannot move it above 110F while the water is running -- safety. I have showered at 115F -- that's very hot but sometimes desirable -- but to get there I have to turn the water off briefly to set that temp.

Now I want a remote control in the kitchen too. BTW, while the water is running, one remote has priority and others cannot change the temp setting. Changing priority requires stopping the water flow.

As I said, I did it for convenience and floor space rather than energy cost. I probably will spend less, but in other locations, you have to check the relative cost of electric vs gas energy. I'll also spend less because the new location means I'll waste less hot water left in the pipes. But I may use hot water more often in the kitchen and bathroom, which would tend to cost less. I'm not losing sleep over it either way. At times I may be able to set the temp to 140F to get a pot of hot water for beverages -- will try that in a few days.

Cons? Sure. Certainly more expensive than a tank HWH, though don't underestimate the cost of a gas tank HWH. And remember that my cost included a good bit of plumbing work, not just installing the HWH. I suspect it's not that much more than a comparable tank installation.

When electric power goes out, I lose HW immediately -- I have about eight seconds worth in the pipes. This is unlike a gas tank HWH, which will operate indefinitely without electric power, and unlike an electric tank HWH, which will usually have a tank full of HW when the electricity fails. One of the Bosch/Aquastar HWHs (1600H) has a piezo-electric ignition powered by the water flow, and operates with no other electric power. I like the idea but that unit has no remote control and little temp control.

In a cold climate, you have to be careful that an outdoor unit doesn't freeze. It has built-in protection, but there are caveats in the manual which I skimmed over quickly since I don't have to worry about them.

There are times when I want less than half a gallon a minute of hot water, even with the temp set so I can use pure hot. I may want a slow stream at the kitchen sink. I may even want a very slow shower. Generally, though, these are infeasible with my previous setup, and possibly only a circulating HW system would satisfy these desires.

The rated flow rates are for a 35F temperature rise. Since I never need anywhere near 5 GPM and my cold water ... well, I'm guessing, but I suspect it seldom drops below 60F ... isn't very cold, so I'll never run out of 110F water. A household up north, with probably 40F or lower winter cold water temp and needing two simultaneous showers, might hit the limit. OTOH, such a household might have trouble keeping enough HW from a tank HWH.

Really needs the remote control in each use location for greatest benefit. This of course increases the cost, and in some households would probably bring up user conflicts. (OTOH, if simultaneous users are that common, perhaps it's better to have only one control and not to count on having fine temp control, as I do.)

If you already have gas, you probably have an adequate supply. If you don't have gas, then you have to add it or else have a large electric feed (as others have described).

Note that on my unit, the trip-on time is only half a second, thus very little water lost to the trip time. But if you're trying to get just enough to trip it, you are likely to waste some water while ramping up the flow.

Edward

Reply to
Edward Reid

I think if you go to any independent, credible source on tankless, eg DOE, they in fact say they are more efficient than tank type and they don't give caveats like yours about them becoming less efficient if you use water frequently throughout the day. In fact, that is precisely what tankless are good for, supplying continous hot water without ever running out.

What you're missing here is a couple of things. First, the efficiency of the unit is what determines how much hot water you get out for a given amount of gas or electricity that goes in. Whether it uses a smaller burner over a longer time or a larger one over a shorter time, doesn't matter. Second, the tank type heater has basicly the same standby loss whether it's used once a day or frequently throughout the day. Just because it's already running due to hot water having been drawn and consequently you don't notice the burner starting up due to standby losses, doesn't mean they disappear. Heat is still continually escaping from the tank.

If there was a need for such a curve, don't you think we'd have one by now?

Reply to
trader4

Can you post some numbers so we can see what you're talking about? The problem I have with tankless is I look at my gas bills during the summer months when the gas is just used for the water heater and my gas outdoor grill. Those bills are under $20 a month, usually in the mid teens, which includes both usage and standby losses. I live in NJ where NG prices are probably among the higher ones. So, I'm having a hard time figuring out how standby losses can amount to more than $5 or so a month. In that case, in 10 years, they only amount to about $600. Which is less than the difference in cost between my conventional, not high EF, water heater and a tankless install.

I'm not saying they can't be a good solution for some applications. Just that I have doubts that you can get a payback in 4-5 years.

Reply to
trader4

I replaced a fairly new tank with a Bosch tankless in 2004. The house has two water heaters. One (still a tank) feeds the bedroom end of the house with it's bathrooms. The other, now a tankless, feeds the kitchen and laundry. When we put in the tankless, our summer gas bill dropped from $20 to $10 in the months after the switch.. There wasn't any change in the number of people in the house or how we used gas or the gas rate.

I figure the tankless cost $500 more than a tank, so that would be a 4 year payback. You would be right not to put a lot of faith in those gas usage numbers, I don't have any way to track it in detail.

-- Doug

Reply to
Douglas Johnson

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