Tankless HWH - Best place for a breaker?

I am installing a tankless HWH - and I wonder if it matters if the controlling circuit breaker is right next to it as opposed to in another room - leaving a run of wire from the breaker to the HWH.
If it matters, why?
Anyone?
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Jethro wrote:

Electrical Code in your local area governs.
The breaker can go in a central location. The question is where is the manual disconnect.
For loads like this, some, perhaps many jurisdictions will require a switch within X feet of the device, so that firefighters do not have to search thru an unlabeled electrical panel to disconnect the device before dousing it with water.
So ask a local electrician what is required in your area.
I say this from BITTER experience. Firefighters have to WALK past my breaker box to get to the AC compressor and condenser. Yet code requires a manual disconnect within 6 feet of the unit, so a new box, switch, and section of pipe had to be installed on the outside of my house to bring it up to code.
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Robert Gammon wrote:

you know tankless dont work well and never save you any money considering their initial high cost?
depend on minimum and maximum flow to trip them on. so a faucet opened a little will have no hot water, and too many faucets or fixtures at once will result in cool rather than hot water. besides standby losses in a regular tank help heat your home, and if a power faiure occurs ZIP hot water for a quick shower.
they say tankless heater owners have 2 of the happiest days of their life, the day its installed and the day its finally removed.
so why are you going tankless? electric or gas?
electric tankless will likely require a main electric upgrade to 400 amps, 200 just for tankless:( Service upgrade can cost thousands:(
Payback period for tankless exceeds life of unit, sadly you NEVER get any savings:(
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wrote:
: :Robert Gammon wrote: :> Jethro wrote: :> > I am installing a tankless HWH - and I wonder if it matters if the :> > controlling circuit breaker is right next to it as opposed to in :> > another room - leaving a run of wire from the breaker to the HWH. :> > :> > If it matters, why? :> > :> > Anyone? :> > : :you know tankless dont work well and never save you any money :considering their initial high cost? : :depend on minimum and maximum flow to trip them on. so a faucet opened :a little will have no hot water, and too many faucets or fixtures at :once will result in cool rather than hot water. besides standby losses :in a regular tank help heat your home, and if a power faiure occurs ZIP :hot water for a quick shower. : :they say tankless heater owners have 2 of the happiest days of their :life, the day its installed and the day its finally removed. : :so why are you going tankless? electric or gas? : :electric tankless will likely require a main electric upgrade to 400 :amps, 200 just for tankless:( Service upgrade can cost thousands:( : :Payback period for tankless exceeds life of unit, sadly you NEVER get :any savings:( I really don't know the ins and outs. Frankly, I'd never considered a tankless, but a municipally funded nonprofit agency offered to install it in my house for free. I qualified for the program, they are dedicated to energy conservation and ecologically sound home improvment technologies, they'd never installed a THWH, evidently wanted to do so, and they had some extra money at the end of their fiscal year, ended June 30. On top of that, I had a bit of a problem running a vent from my dryer out the wall because of the old tank water heater I had was in the way. It was about time to replace the water heater, and they got the idea to install a tankless, and I figured "what do I have to lose?"
Honestly, I'm not overjoyed. I guess it's OK. I won't have the whole story until I live with it a year, through all the seasons. It doesn't furnish hot water unless the flow is at least .5 gallon/minute. One effect of that is that you either use that much flow or you turn the spigot off. That's because any water coming from the heater at a slower rate will not be heated at all, so when it gets to you, it will be cold!
Right now (summer), I'm mainly using it for taking a shower, because the cold water is warm enough to do my dishes, unless I have a lot of dishes, in which case I use the hot. In my situation, I'm very unlikely to have hot water flow to the point where the heater can't furnish the supply needed. I would never have installed it if I had to pay for the thing, that's for certain. I actually expected I'd have to buy a tank heater myself and install it myself. One thing I plan on doing (and could have done with the tank water heater) is insulate the hot water pipes, at least the ones I use the most.
Dan
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wrote:

Thanks all
Jethro
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wrote:

This is very legible now that I've started to reply, but with the default font for reading it, I couldn't see the decimal point. There are lots of different fonts used in displays, so if I may, I think 0.5 would be more legible, and understandable even if the . wasn't visible. Thanks. More below

That was one of the first things I did when I moved in. In my last house, my mother's, the water took forever to get warm in the bathroom, maybe 60 feet from the water heater. I thought with insulation my hot water would be warm when I turned it on. It was not to be. I have a townhouse, so the basement distance, mostly horizontal, was only about 18 feet, and the climb to the 2nd floor, 11 feet, couldn't be insulated. Maybe if there was more than one person here, there would be occasions when the water was still warm because of the insulation. But for me, it is only still warm if I turn it on twice pretty close together. Usually by the next time I use the water it's fully cold again, and takes a long time for hot water to arrive.
I guess while in the middle of a bath or shower, I lose less heat and can use a little bit less hot water, but I have no way of measuring that.
Still insulation is cheap, but don't expect miracles.

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I would never go back from my properly sized Takagi gas unit (a max 235,000 BTU Mobius TM1 ) to a conventional tank type heater - nor would my spouse let me.
The Takagi does exactly what we require: when the house if empty, it just sits there, burning no gas at all. If we are entertaining a house full of guests it fires up on demand and produces water at the temperature we want, in whatever quantity is required - up to sufficient quantity to run a dishwashers , a clothes washer, two showers, and provide water at the taps at the same time - continuously for hours if required.
That's what we paid for.
And that's what we got.
We love it.
YMMV
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Hmmm, I am going to have to disagree. I just installed the big 7.4 Paloma natural gas tankless WH. The cost with 10% off from HD was $900. I get a $440 conservation rebate from my utility for switching to gas from electric and I will get a $300 tax credit leaving me with an actual cost of about $160 plus another $100 in parts to install. So not only did it cost less than a convential WH but I will recoup the monies spent quickly vs. the cost of electric HW.... and btw, I am thrilled with the performance of the unit. I can run every faucet in my house and still get water that's too hot to touch. I suspect that if one run's an undersized unit, they would not be happy though.
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Dano wrote:

Wait until you need parts. One of our customers bought a Bosch unit from HD. Needed parts. HD was no help. Called Bosch. They didn't recognize the model #. It was a special model # made just for HD.
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well government mucked with the numbers with that tax credit. going from electric to gas is always cost effective.
ahh the endless supply of hpot water may lead to more costs. people tend to shower longer when theres a endless supply of hot water...
if your noi careful your water and gas bills will climb because its unlimited.
with a 300 buck standard gas hot water tank you could of neted a big savings long ago...
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Robert Gammon wrote:

Reading up on a Bosch electric tankless
Needs 3 separate 208/240 circuit, each rated for 40A.
That's not a simple outlet folks, more like a range outlet, but THREE of them.
Plus the Bosch requires 0.8 GPM to activate.
45F rise delivers 4.0 gpm, so with 70F water, you get 115F, but with 50F water, its only 95F
Lower flows, higher heating rates. 70F rise at nominal shower rate, so 70F becomes 140F (scald risk), or with 50F water, 120F shower,(ultra hot)
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wrote:
:Robert Gammon wrote: :> Jethro wrote: :>> I am installing a tankless HWH - and I wonder if it matters if the :>> controlling circuit breaker is right next to it as opposed to in :>> another room - leaving a run of wire from the breaker to the HWH. :>> :>> If it matters, why? :>> :>> Anyone? :> Electrical Code in your local area governs. :> :> The breaker can go in a central location. The question is where is :> the manual disconnect. :> :> For loads like this, some, perhaps many jurisdictions will require a :> switch within X feet of the device, so that firefighters do not have :> to search thru an unlabeled electrical panel to disconnect the device :> before dousing it with water. :> :> So ask a local electrician what is required in your area. :> I say this from BITTER experience. Firefighters have to WALK past my :> breaker box to get to the AC compressor and condenser. Yet code :> requires a manual disconnect within 6 feet of the unit, so a new box, :> switch, and section of pipe had to be installed on the outside of my :> house to bring it up to code. :Reading up on a Bosch electric tankless : :Needs 3 separate 208/240 circuit, each rated for 40A. : :That's not a simple outlet folks, more like a range outlet, but THREE of :them. : :Plus the Bosch requires 0.8 GPM to activate. : :45F rise delivers 4.0 gpm, so with 70F water, you get 115F, but with 50F :water, its only 95F : :Lower flows, higher heating rates. 70F rise at nominal shower rate, so :70F becomes 140F (scald risk), or with 50F water, 120F shower,(ultra hot)
Mine's a Noritz Model N-069-MOD, and gas. It uses very little juice, evidently. Actually, I measured it. 5 watts standby, 30 watts operating.
Dan
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Dan_Musicant wrote:

You used a KEY word, GAS They use almost no power as you have noticed.
The OP has an ELECTRIC model
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:I am installing a tankless HWH - and I wonder if it matters if the :controlling circuit breaker is right next to it as opposed to in :another room - leaving a run of wire from the breaker to the HWH. : :If it matters, why? : :Anyone?
A plumbing company installed one at my house around two months ago. Don't know the requirements here, but they installed a new breaker (20 amp, I believe) in the breaker box and dedicated it to the HWH. They possibly did this because the rest of my circuitry is ungrounded, except where I've run wires to cold water pipes.
They gave me a choice:
1. Put a switch right at the heater for quick disconnect.
2. Install an AC outlet right next to the HWH (with 2 receptacles) and plug the HWH into a receptacle.
I chose option (2) because it's nice to have a quick source of AC out in my patio. Before, I would run a wire out a bathroom window when I needed AC out there.
Dan
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wrote:

Your WH is on your patio? Where do you live? I thought tankless water heaters were small and usually installed under the sink??

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mm wrote:

Two types of tankless. point of use, so under sink. Whole house tankless are still about the same size as a small water heater for a mobile home. Under a sink and they take up most of the room under the sink. Plus gas fired units need a flue for their exhaust gas.
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wrote:

Never knew that. I'm sure knowing that will benefit me some day. Thanks.
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:wrote: :
:> :>:I am installing a tankless HWH - and I wonder if it matters if the :>:controlling circuit breaker is right next to it as opposed to in :>:another room - leaving a run of wire from the breaker to the HWH. :>: :>:If it matters, why? :>: :>:Anyone? :> :>A plumbing company installed one at my house around two months ago. :>Don't know the requirements here, but they installed a new breaker (20 :>amp, I believe) in the breaker box and dedicated it to the HWH. They :>possibly did this because the rest of my circuitry is ungrounded, except :>where I've run wires to cold water pipes. :> :>They gave me a choice: :> :>1. Put a switch right at the heater for quick disconnect. :> :>2. Install an AC outlet right next to the HWH (with 2 receptacles) and :>plug the HWH into a receptacle. :> :>I chose option (2) because it's nice to have a quick source of AC out in :>my patio. : :Your WH is on your patio? Where do you live? I thought tankless :water heaters were small and usually installed under the sink??
It's not that small. It's about the size of a decent sized microwave oven, and I don't believe it would fit under a sink. AFAIK, they are generally installed outdoors. For one thing, the thing vents hot air. Not out a vent pipe, but out slits in the side. It just wouldn't work under a sink.
Dan : :>Before, I would run a wire out a bathroom window when I needed :>AC out there. :> :>Dan
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Dan_Musicant wrote:

Remember that there are two types of tankless heaters. Point of Use, and whole house.
Under the sink application is fine for PoU sink use, but supplying a shower is problematic with one.
PoU on the patio for a prep sink is ok.
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