Snow shovels

[krw]

Of course, you're wrong as always. I lived in "snow country" all my life.

Then why to you post, stupid?

[George]

A blunt edge? I drilled out the rivets holding the remains of the strip last year just to see. I tried using it and the next step was to put it out on trash day. It might work if trying to clear a grassy area etc but useless if you want to clean down to bare pavement.

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

That's when I pull out the single stage electric. [an old Toro 12amp] It will empty mud puddles, and shoots thick-shake consistency snow

20-30'.

Jim

[LSMFT]

I noticed the shovel with the bent handle costs twice as much. Nobody invented the hydraulic snow shovel yet?

[Jules Richardson]

I have a couple - a 24" plastic scoop thing (rather like the Garant one on the site you linked to) and an 18" metal shovel. I cleared around

100'x12'x1' with them last week so the propane truck could get through and my back's not complaining (some idiot put the tank waaaay round the back of our house :-)

With the scoop one I keep the adjustable handle short so I can grip the back of the scoop with one hand (with the other hand left on the end of the handle) and lift - I find it's easier to move snow out with less strain on the back doing it that way.

I'm indifferent about the curvy handle on that Ames one, I think. I expect that wedge-shaped blade would piss me off though; snow usually packs pretty well so it's useful to run the blade a few feet into the snowfall to pack it tightly before lifting it out of the way, and I could see a lot of it just falling off the back with a wedge-shaped design.

cheers

Jules

[DerbyDad03]

By "you" I assume you mean *you*, not me. Since you've never used my shovel or seen my driveway after it's been shoveled, you certainly can't be claiming that *my* shovel is useless.

What can I say? Obviously you (allegedly) removed the strip from different brand shovel than mine. Maybe you didn't give it time to wear the plastic down to a sharper edge. I can't say, I wasn't there.

All I can do is repeat what I said before: *My* shovel works fine on all the surfaces I need it to: Asphalt, concrete and lawn. It cleans down to the bare pavement yet doesn't get caught on rough edges or the lawn.

You have my condolences that your shovel was "useless" after you removed the strip, but mine has been extremely use*ful* for many years.

[RicodJour]

ote:

If you're digging sand, you don't need your foot to sink the shovel into the pile, and that's similar to shoveling snow, so just eliminate the foot thing straight away as it has no bearing. The reason I don't like the bent-handled, what-trick-can-we-come-up-with-to-sell-more- shovels is twofold. The first is that with a bent handle there is a greater moment arm which makes tossing the snow anywhere but straight ahead of the shovel more problematic. I toss the snow, as another poster mentioned they did, and the bent handle requires you to have a much tighter grip on the shovel to prevent it from rotating when you're tossing the snow. This is due to the offset and is simple physics. The other reason is that the shorter straight handle section of a bent handle doesn't allow as many hand positions, and doesn't allow your hand to slide along the shaft, which is critical when tossing snow.

Correct - a range of "right" sizes, though. People vary.

That is interesting - those two sentences can be parsed different ways to mean totally different things.

"Allows you to move the least" - move the least snow per shovel-full, or move your body the least? It doesn't really matter as your core concept belief is stuck in the snow. ;) Snow shoveling is a sport - at least the way I do it - and it is similar to other sports where there is a decided difference in approach to ultimate strength versus endurance. Any exercise where there is low weight/load and high reps, at an appropriate rate, will see an overall improvement in endurance (stamina) and a more efficient result. A high cadence in cycling is a perfect analogy. It improves long term efficiency and minimizes injuries.

The second sentence is even more vague. You have no idea if a "wasted movement" is efficient on an overall basis. You're starting out with the presupposition that the movement is wasted. Measure calories and we can talk overall efficiency.

The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out.

R

[krw]

Shovels are made for more than sand, so it certainly does have a bearing. Snow shovels are made for one purpose (even though there are different sorts of snow shovels).

Complete nonsense. They work. I wouldn't have one if I could only have one shovel, but they work for what they're intended for.

Swing the arms in an arc. Don't change directions. Even a straight shovel will twist with a good load of snow. Mostly I did shovel more or less in a straight line, though. Twisting the back when throwing snow isn't a good practice.

Nonsense.

You're shoveling technique is screwed if you're sliding your hand.

Smaller is *NOT* more efficient. You may hurt yourself if you take too much of a bite, but that's a different discussion.

"you to move the least"; "move" modifies "you".

You like pain. No wonder you like crappy tools.

Waste == inefficient.

You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. Your back can give out in any case. Assuming no injury, you'll last longer with a more efficient technique.

[DerbyDad03]

re: "The only benefit to having a larger shovel is that hopefully you'll finish shoveling before your back gives out. "

Hmm...I'm was on your side up until you added that line.

If there is a numerical relationship between weight and back problems then a bigger shovel offers no advantage or it might even be a detriment.

Just throwing numbers out and obviously using extremes, consider this...

Perhaps I can toss 100 five-pound shovelfuls or 50 ten-pound shovelfuls before my back goes out . I tossed the same 500 pounds either way so I gain no benefit from the bigger shovel.

Now, going to the extremes, let's say I tossed 1,000,000 spoonfuls vs.

1 huge shovelful that cleared the entire driveway. Odds are my brain will go out before my back would when using the spoon, but my back would be shot as soon as I tried to lift the huge shovelful.

My point is that a bigger shovel may not be any advantage since I don't think back issues are "timed" as much as they are related to the strain put on the muscles. I'd have to lean towards bigger shovels having more risk than smaller ones.

[DerbyDad03]

re: "You'll use less energy with a larger shovel and work faster. "

Maybe not..see my response to RicodJour.

It's all relative and a larger shovel could actually be a detriment.

[krw]

Now add in the weight of your back, arms, and the shovel.

[DerbyDad03]

OK, let's see, the average head weighs about 8% of the total body weight, the legs are about 40% and each butt cheek is at least 4 - 5 lbs (depending, of course...)

Now all I need to do is figure out where my front stops and my back begins and I'll have that figure for you.

Please stand by.

[krw]

The point being that you're only counting part of the energy used.

[George]

Well clearly I don't have your level of sophistication but I did manage to drill out 3 rivets...

And did you ever consider your criticism of a basic well proven commodity item is a little odd?

Most snow shovels have a steel edge. Manufacturers have made millions or maybe 10s of millions of them because it is a proven design and it works. Steel and rivets aren't expensive but why would they bother doing it if it doesn't work? I have honestly never heard anyone complain that the edge is a flaw and they needed to remove it before they could use the shovel.

[RicodJour]

Your shovel had only three rivets holding on the edge? I don't think I've ever seen a riveted edge show shovel with fewer than five, and more is more common.

You mean like questioning the quality of Detroit iron from the late

60's and early 70's? Or Thompson's Water Seal? Both sold just fine, but they were/are largely crap products.

No one is arguing that a good edge is a bad thing. What I have an issue with is an edge that gets destroyed way before the shovel gives out. Then you have a hanging edge, so you have to grab a rivet gun, then another rivet goes, or the edge gets bent and/or burrs. It's bad edges that I object to, and if you've seen what they're selling in the stores, most of them have aluminum edges now.

I don't remove the edge until it becomes a lost cause. I was just using one shovel a little while ago (the shallower one that came without a metal edge) and was surprised to see that there are molded ridges and obvious attachment markings for a metal edge - but no edge was ever attached. I guess they sell the same shovel in two different versions.

R

[RicodJour]

Ummm, DD...? I was making a funny, or at least trying to. I wasn't recommending a large shovel. I would generally counsel just the opposite for a number of reasons.

R

[Tegger]

RicodJour wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Bingo. You hit it right on the head, on all counts.

A straight shaft works the best for me, even if I end up needing to bend over a bit more.

For me, with a single-wide driveway that's only 50-feet long, this is the best scenario for a snow shovel:

- a 20" plastic blade with raised edges on the sides;

- no metal edge on the blade;

- a pronounced curve on the blade (for a certain technique used with dry, light snow);

- a straight shaft.

[DerbyDad03]

... major snippage...

Here's what I don't get...

I told you what I did. I told you why I did it. I told you that it works fine for me. I told you that the same shovel has worked fine for years.

Why do you keep pushing back?

Are you expecting me to suddenly take it all back and tell you that I was lying?

Are you expecting me to go find the strip, put it back on and use it like the other 10's of millions of shovels out there?

Are you expecting me to go out into the garage and throw the shovel out because, based on your experience, it can't possibly work?

Just what is it that makes you keep coming back to this ng and arguing with me?

[Lisa BB.]

George wrote in news:ifggef$ven$ [e-mail]:

We still have 2 shovels my husband acquired from work. They've got to be at least 20 years old. They are steel and square shaped. They have a bit of a bowl shape so they can hold a small pile of snow. The handles are very long (about 5 eet). They are excellent for digging out heavy snow and being able to throw it far or high up. If the snow is very heavy/wet, then I only shovel in layers. It leaves a bit of a snow mess so then I use a push shovel on the lumps left on the ground. I'm not sure what these shovels were intended for but they work great.

I just did a google image search and found what it looks like:

My shovels have wood handles and the spade portion is painted green.

I found a product online called the Sno Wovel. I'd be interested to know if anyone has one and how they like it. Such as if it works with heavy snow. Lisa

[clare]

anyone else is welcome to reply, but I knew what you were going to say (and I was right).