SIMPLE electrical job. Cost via electrician? chg direct-wire to plug & socket

Page 3 of 6  
On 2/3/2012 6:30 PM, mike wrote:

The Nec requires that it be designed to be unattached , and removed for servicing, for a cord and plug to be used. Not too many central heating systems that meet that criteria.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's only the "B" part. There IS another allowed reason.
422.16 Flexible Cords. (A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent interchange or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration
A power failure every year or less can be considered "frequent interchange". - if you don't wish to make a case for anti-vibration (and you do not have a "compliant connection" or whatever you call the fabric connector on the duct hood.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/3/2012 7:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Boy, you are one master of misinterpretation. It's referring to interchanging the appliance. You don't replace your boiler because of frequent power failures. I would love to see you try and run your silly arguments by an electrical inspector. They'd laugh you right out of the business.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

They get inspected and passed all the time. And not just in Ontario, or Canada.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/3/2012 8:25 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>

And you determined that from your Ouija board?
You and Evan generalize what is (allegedly) true where you are to the universe.
I agree with RBM.
To take a slightly different approach, use of cords is covered in article 410. Uses permitted is in 410.7-A. Possibly relevant sections are: "(6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange. (7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration. (8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance...."
Sections 6 and 8 are not relevant to boilers in the US. You may have to often replace your boilers (6) or remove them for maintenance in Canada (7) but it does not happen in the US.
Any competent electrician in the US (don't know about Canada where electricians "molest" the wiring) can connect a boiler and avoid the transmission of vibration. There are numerous flexible wiring methods and our boilers are massive enough not to vibrate.
But if we imported a Canadian boiler that had enough vibration problem that a flexible cord was need we couldn't connect it with a plug. Plugs are covered in 410.7-B. Plugs are not permitted for (7) above.
That is consistent with the more limited 422.16 and with what RBM said.
Incidentally, if a receptacle was allowed it wouldn't be a duplex receptacle which you suggested.
You could also read the comments of gfretwell who basically says it is (a minor) wrong but he would do it anyway. (Is it any wonder our youth are in trouble. Where are the role models...)
--
bud--



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Google it like I did. It is being done and passed in Pennsylvania for sure.

You are generalizing about something you apparently don't know any more about than I do.

Correct. Code DOES say a "dedicated" outlet - which in it's strictest interpretation is a single outlet. Again - I DID later say I recommended a 20 amp twist-lock - and every one of THOSE I have run across recently IS a single outlet.

There is no safety or logical resaon NOT to. I suspect it is a carry-over from some reason that USED to exist.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/4/2012 3:17 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Anecdotal evidence of "all the time". What a great idea. Astrology works "all the time".

Like RBM I am commenting on NEC requirements.

Strictest? It is the interpretation that any competent electrician would use.

Nothing has changed. Cord is tested primarily for flexibility. Tests of, for instance, romex are much more extensive. Cord is not intended to be a permanent wiring method and is not allowed "as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure."
RBM provided a connection method that is code compliant. The same method could be done cheaper if built from parts if you are doing it yourself. The OP asked about having an electrician do it. An electrician is real unlikely to wire a cord and plug unless they have cleared their method with the AHJ. The AHJ is not available.
And in the US a 20A receptacle wired with #12 wire but on a 15A breaker is a code violation.
--
bud--



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/5/2012 11:25 AM, bud-- wrote:

This is the code:
Nec 422.16 Flexible cords
(A) General. Flexible cord shall be permitted (1) for the connection of appliances to facilitate their frequent interchange or to prevent the transmission of noise or vibration or (2) to facilitate the removal or disconnection of appliances that are fastened in place, where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection.
Nec handbook note: It should be understood that a cord-connected appliance is required to be specifically designed mechanically and electrically, to be readily removable for maintenance and repair.
This is the Clare interpretation of the code:
" If you have a "compliant coupling" on the ductwork to eliminate vibration, the flexible cord is allowed under the code for the same reason.. Immaterial that the rigid gas line passes vibration to the house. No inspector can say FOR SURE that the cord is not there for vibration reasons - and if it is allowed for that purpose there is no SAFETY reason for denying it - hense the overlooking of the "infraction" by so many inspectors."
REALY??? (ROFL) Note all the straw men inserted.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The reality is, these things generally do not get inspected since it happens after the CO but if this was done with the proper cord connector (not a Romex clamp) and the cord was of appropriate size, an inspector might hold his nose and walk away from it, only thinking about the worse alternatives homeowners do like backfeeding dryer outlets.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/5/2012 11:53 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I was wondering where you were? I agree, the fact is today, many central heating systems have some type of Molex quick disconnects for parts of the system, like the burner or pumps, etc. that do need to be disconnected for service or repair.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/5/12 2:32 PM, Mike Homes wrote:

That would be up to the Legislature of whatever state. The NEC is a legal document that sets up minimum standards. Most of Nebraska is under the 2011 code now. It's enforced by state inspectors. Lincoln, Omaha, and a few other towns have their own inspectors and special rules if they chose. I do irrigation wiring. The legislature is considering putting us under the code along with those wiring grain handling equipment. There hasn't been any inspections of either for years as far as I know.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:55:21 -0600, Dean Hoffman

You don't get sued for not following code, you get sued when it can be demonstrated that not following code injured someone. In most states inspectors are covered by sovereign immunity. When you sue them you are suing the state and all the legal talent they are willing to bring to bear. YMMV as to how that might go. On the other hand the CBO or whomever is the designated AHJ can pretty much decide how his jurisdiction interprets the code and in a lot of places, what the code actually is. Florida has a "unified building code" and all AHJs are supposed to be reading from the same book in each jurisdiction but there are different "interpretations" of that same code.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:54:57 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Many local codes are union driven. Using conduit or BX makes it more difficult for the DIYer too, thus more work for the union electricians.
NYC is a solid union town. We've exhibited at trades shows there and everything had to be handled by union people. That included plugging in a lamp into an extension cord.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<stuff snipped>

I hadn't thought of that but you're right. Big cities have incredible vermin problems, especially in buildings with restaurants on the first floor. Even armored cable doesn't eliminate the problem. It just slows them down a little. (-:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23160590-Armored-cable-RG6-and-phone-squirrels
<<Squirrels will chew through plastic, lead, steel, and aluminum. I've seen squirrels chew through "squirrel proof" cable which was a plastic sheath, steel turnplate, plastic sheath, steel turnplate, mylar, aluminum turnplate, mylar, then cable bundles. Right - through - it!. Less than 1 year after being placed.>>
I've seen what they can do in a few hours to a Havahart steel trap.
I grew up with BX cable everywhere in NYC. IMHO, it's harder to be sloppy with armored cable. I suspect bad cable stapling causes a lot of problems for NM sheathed wiring. At least from what I've seen in the houses I've lived in and watching ATOH electricians. Misses with the hammer that dinged the sheath, badly angled staples, skinned insulation and even staples piercing the insulation are some of the things I've seen.
I lived above a restaurant in downtown DC once. It was the first time I ever heard a cockroach walking. I heard a scratching noise under the bed, got a flashlight, looked under it and it was like that scene in Aliens where he pokes his head in the ceiling.
-- Bobby G.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What's a "condensing" furnace, and how does it differ from the older ones, and to what effect (each)?
Thanks,
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 2/11/2012 1:52 PM, David Combs wrote:

Condensing furnaces are 95% efficient, a regular furnace might be only 80%.
Condensing furnaces are more trouble prone though, by the time mine was 20 years old I had replace the draft inducer ($540) and two exhaust pressure safety switches at $100 each.
At the end of the day, I don't think the high efficiency units actually save any money though.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:52:56 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:

A condensing furnace has 2 heat exchangers and cools the stack gasses to the point virtually all moisture condenses out - and a blower is required to force the exhaust out. You need either a floor drain near-by or a condensate pump to get the water to a drain.
Virtually all "high efficiency" furnaces (92% or better) are condensing furnaces.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
...

I always heard that you ALWAYS want GFCI.
(Except that you don't want two on the same circuit? Why not?)
Why, in this boiler case, would you NOT want one?
Thanks,
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:46:19 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:

*I* don't always want GFCI. I was looking at a few houses today. One (new) had a GFCI on the smoke alarm circuits. It may even be code, but I didn't think it's such a good idea. I certainly would *want* that.

No need. False trips. It's a cost/benefit tradeoff.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:46:19 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:

GFCI can trip for various reason, not always a fault. Not a big deal with a toaster, just hit the reset button. With refrigerators and heaters, if it trips while you are away, you can have a serious loss.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.