Replacing a hot water heater. Efficiency?

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http://www.askthebuilder.com/451_Tankless_Water_Heaters_-_Some_Surprising_Facts.shtml
talks about the overhyped tankless and their problems payback exceeds the life of the tank..
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" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote:

http://www.askthebuilder.com/451_Tankless_Water_Heaters_-_Some_Surprising_Facts.shtml
Did you see the date of a reply puts that pre-03. Back in 03 I would go with tankless because they were reletively new but today's units have a lot more going for them. Research the latest, I did and we are using a propane tankless from Bosch.
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Electric has losses also - depending on the insulation level of the tank. 100% efficient? Only if you are heating the area with electric heat all the time.
Bob
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Bob F wrote:

based on the conversion of the heat potential of the fuel to the heat potential of the water. Loss of heat because of poor insulation of the tank etc. is not part of the "efficiency" rating. And it has to be that way because no one can predict or account for all the possible combinations of installation including outside (no protection), cold garage, small closet, etc. If efficiency did include other factors, gas water heaters would have a terrible efficiency (just think of that hole through the center of tank and the air heated by the hot water rising through the flue pipe to the outdoors.
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Somebody wrote:
> Electric? It makes no difference as electric is 100% efficient.
Nothing is 100% efficient.
Electric still may be a good choice, IF you do the following:
1) Must have an off peak heating rate to make it economically feasible.
2) Off peak heating means you need a large tank, at least 80-100 gallons for a family of 4.
Remember, you will be heating water at 2:00AM for a hot shower at 6:00PM that night.
My father built a house and followed the above guidelines.
We always had hot water during the 10 years I lived there, before leaving home.
Lew
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wrote in message

Who cares about "ratings"? The fact is that some water heaters are better insulated, and will cost you less to operate. They lesser insulated ones are less "efficient". 100%? I don't think so. Sure, they convert 100% of the energy to heat in the water. But then they lose the heat to the environment. IF you use a cheaper source of heat to heat your house, or if you want to cool it, that is going to cost you money.
Bob
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Bob F wrote:

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It is 100% efficient in turning electricity into heat. It is not 100% efficient in transferring that heat to the water nor is it 100% efficient in turning fuel into heat. It just moves the point of inefficiency from a local burner to a generating plant.

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On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:00:15 -0500, "Greg O"

I don't know why folks quote that old saw: "electric is 100% efficient". It's a meaningless statement.
Electric usage for resistance heating may well be 100% efficient at the end user site but that doesn't take into account the large losses at the power plant, the distribution system, house wiring losses, etc.
These combined losses are among the reasons why electric resistance heating of anything is generally more expensive than natural gas, unless the electric source is hydro or subsidized.
Doug
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Doug wrote:

Your argument ignores the fact that efficiency in this context means the efficiency of conversion from one type of energy to another, in this case electricity to heat. Losses at the power plant are the result of a different conversion, converting coal or gas to electricity.
If you want to add up all the losses and cost you have to include the cost of mining the metal in the heater among about 10,000 other things.
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Except in the fact that 100% of the energy you pay for is used to heat. As opposed to gas, for instance, where some of the heat goes up the chimney.

OK - I'll give you the house wiring losses - not much there.

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Jay Pique wrote:

See:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/home-garden/heating-cooling-air/waterheater-tips-205-gas-hot-water-heater-electric-hot-water-heater/overview/index.htm
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
  Click to see the full signature.
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Jay Pique wrote:

Marathon.
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You may want to check out: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/the-right-hot-water-heater.html
Of course they're trying to sell their product, but it appears they offer some decent advice. I too am thinking I'll be replacing soon so found this website. Cheers, cc
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HERE'S SOME PROS & CONS OF TANKLESS W/HEATERS:
http://www.chilipepperapp.com/tankless.htm
#################################################### James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/the-right-hot-water-heater.html
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here in buffalo ny: natural gas is cheaper fuel. we had 9 days no electric after the freak october 13, 2006 22-inch wet snowstorm that knocked 1/3 of a million people off the electrical power grid with downed branches. we had no interruption in hot water. [i once wished i bought the ebay showerhead with a generator light in it.] note here a 40,000 BTUH with standing pilot light gas water heater has around a 61 gallon delivery in the first hour. note gas is usually twice the recovery rate with gas at 40 gallons per hour and electric at 20 gallons per hour on the lower priced conventional household units. and winter water to shower water temp is more than a 90 degree rise requirement in this climate. see various manufacturers websites but GRAINGER has excellent comparison specifications information on their website: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml also see extensive choosing and add-ons and troubleshooting of your next water heater: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Troubleshooting/troubleshooting.html
Jay Pique wrote:

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note that in a cold weather area the heater is generally indoors, so the standby losses help heat the home, thus they really arent lost except in the summer
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But if your gas furnace or heat pump produce the same heat for less $, you will pay more anyway. Or, heaven forbid, if you try to cool your house.
Bob
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I just built a new house 3 years ago and did the finish plumbing and would like to comment on recirculation water. I had a 48' run from the water heater to the shower on the other end of the house and thought it would be wise to put a pump in a loop back to the water heater. I also purchased a motion sensor switch that I put in the bathroom to turn the pump on when the room was entered that also had a manual switch on it so it could be turned off and the pump turned on manually. These are available at Lowes. I insulated the supply and return runs to the water heater. In the end I found the pump and my switch set up were un-necessary since the water would re-circulate by natural convection. I don't know what the situation would have been if I would have wanted to do it to an upstairs floor. I would have had to insulate the pipes going to upstairs walls before covering and so on. My situation was water heater in basement and shower on the opposite end of the house worked out fine. Bill T
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Bob F wrote:

ELECTRICITY is the MOST expensiv per BTU than any other heat source in most of the country. primarlily because electricity is made frequently by burning natural gas or other fuel sources, add a step in the process adds costs
effcency of tank is printed on energy guide label along with average costs to operate for compatison purposes. foam insulation is very good today
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